Quote from Jenny on January 30, 2023, 6:26 am

@mmb3664 thank you for posting. It’s very interesting to see lab results. I would be very happy with your level. I have no intention of running myself into defiency. Your body is keeping a nice homeostasis imo. It’s vA toxicity that is the big issue and to me it looks like you have pulled yourself out of that. Out of interest, have you joined the big egg-periment? Someone with an extremely low serum vA experienced a very big increase with an addition of choline foods (which contained some vA too, but not enough to cause the result). Seems like v low serum vA can represent ‘stuck’ liver, as well as vA actually being low in the liver. This has been talked about before, but never seen such strong evidence. 

Quote from Hermes on January 30, 2023, 2:16 pm

@mmb3664

How would you describe your health, experience with life now that you've reduced your vitamin A stores by half? Anything noteworthy, like improved sleep, better mental health?

Quote from Tommy on January 30, 2023, 5:08 pm

@mmb3664

Thanks for posting.

I think these results are astounding. To think that you’ve been avoiding vitamin A for four years straight and you’re not even close to deficiency blows my mind.

To me this only strengthens Grant’s theory, how would a VA deficiency even be possible?

I do have some questions though as I feel like various factors can affect VA levels as you’ve mentioned earlier in the thread.

What do you eat on a regular basis and what is your age? (If you don’t mind me asking)

Quote from mmb3664 on January 31, 2023, 7:17 am

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

@jaj I have not added eggs into my diet for extra choline, mainly for the following reasons:

1. I eat roughly 12 oz of red meat daily, which should supply a decent amount of choline for someone my size, so I do not feel a need to add eggs solely for choline
2. Finding a source of high quality eggs is not that easy for me; most chickens are fed corn/soy, even when the eggs are labeled organic or free range, etc.
3. I do not like eggs that much. I do not have an aversion or anything, but I am definitely not craving or missing them in my diet

I have not been following this forum or Garrett Smith's network much because I feel like reading all these posts gives me even more dietary things to experiment with and I already change up what I am doing far too frequently. lol. I am aware of the whole choline "disagreement", but I am not favoring either side of the argument. I may give eating 1-2 eggs daily a try, but for now, I do not feel any motivation or reason to do so.

@christian My health is great overall. Things that have improved since starting low vA in 2019 include:

1. Better digestion and more regular bowel movements
2. No waking up to pee at night, which used to happen almost every night ~5 years ago
3. My muscles and joints feel more relaxed, so less joint pain, reduced muscle tightness, and better mobility overall
4. Nail and skin quality are great except in the winter or when my diet gets too low in fat
5. Overall better mood and energy. Obviously, I am human, so I have "off" days, but in general, I feel pretty darn good.

Those are either things that I originally wanted to improve in my health or things that stood out throughout this process. Regarding "improved sleep" (since you mentioned it), I feel like sleep has not improved much, but I do feel like I need less sleep now than previously. I am fine on 5-6 hours of sleep a night without any negative effects, at least not from what I can tell.

Also, the above improvements in my health can also be attributed, at least partially, to other things I changed over the past few years. This includes working with Dr. Smith for mineral balancing as well as removing high oxalate foods from my diet. I think the discovery of oxalates and my attempt to avoid them has primarily helped with 3 above.

@tommy I agree that Grant's theory is strengthened by this, though still not proven true. I am not willing to call vA solely a toxin just yet. I do, however, agree that vA deficiency is highly unlikely given that avoiding vA in large quantities for years still does not seem to deplete the liver/body to a level that is considered deficient. It really blows my mind how slow this elimination process is/how much vA the body can store.

Regarding age and diet...I am 33 year old female, if I can do math correctly. 🙂

My diet has changed quite a bit over the past 4 years and I have done a few dietary experiments to see if I could improve things or just see how I felt on a particular diet in general. For the first 1.5 - 2 years, i.e. 2019 and 2020, I ate a lot of white rice, pinto beans, rice cakes, and fruit. Looking back now, I ate a lot of carbohydrates, but did not eat enough protein, especially from meat. I also ate a lot of oxalate-rich foods, which I avoid now. In 2021, I added more meat into my diet and experimented with a low vA carnivore diet for about 2 months (did some butter and eggs, but no organ meats like liver). When not doing a carnivore diet in 2021, I ate a lot more fruit in place of starch. Last year, I did a few dietary experiments that included eating basically just white rice, beef, and coconut water, as well as another go at a low vA carnivore diet for at least 3 months. Much less fruit last year overall. I did reintroduce some bread (sprouted sourdough) into my diet at the end of last year after 10+ years of not eating bread and did not experience any gluten sensitivities or weird side effects from eating wheat.

Needless to say, I am trying to find an "optimal" diet for me that I can stick with long term. I tend to lose weight very quickly and have trouble keeping weight on when I eat a low fat, high starch diet. However, this is my favorite way to eat in terms of food I enjoy. Unfortunately, it also tends to be high in oxalates and PUFA when using unprocessed/whole food sources like beans/legumes, bread, rice (brown/wild), and oats. I do not think eating large quantities of white rice or fruit long term is ideal, which is what would replace most of the high oxalate and high PUFA foods when eating a low fat, high starch diet and trying to avoid oxalates and PUFA. I do not mind eating a high fat diet, but it becomes unpalatable after a little while...my body just does not want that much fat. I am trying to find a balance for myself.

However, if I did a quick "take away" from all my dietary experiments, I would summarize the following, all of which is my opinion and does not need to be agreed with by anyone, especially since it is based on how I respond to various foods:

1. I would never eat a diet that is low in animal protein, as I find animal-based protein to be far too valuable for general health
2. I think there is value in having fiber in the diet as long as you tolerate it. If it causes an stomach upset or gas/bloating, then there is likely an underlying gut dysbiosis that needs to be addressed first
3. Fat, as well as carbs/sugars, can be valuable and neither are the devil despite what each "camp" will have you believe. In general, I am not a proponent of a "mixed"/balanced diet per say, but do think that both fat and carbs are worth including in the diet.

Hopefully that helps?

Quote from Andrew B on January 31, 2023, 8:23 am

@mmb3664 Did eating eggs (and adding more meat) for choline coincide with your highest serum retinol reading of 64.2 in October 2021 ? Quite a high reading in April but a dip in July.

Quote from Jean on January 31, 2023, 10:07 am

 

1. I think there is value in having fiber in the diet as long as you tolerate it. If it causes an stomach upset or gas/bloating, then there is likely an underlying gut dysbiosis that needs to be addressed first

 

@mmb3664, How do you address gut dysbiosis?

Quote from Orion on January 31, 2023, 11:41 am

@mmb3664 @andrew-b @jean

I definitely had to back way off all fiber for now,  I was doing lots of beans up until August 2022, then stopped for vacation, the last four months have been rough since I stopped, I think to much fiber and potentially low choline have messed things up.

For now I am doing the egg-periment and really low fiber content.   I definitely have some gut issues/dysbiosis, rumbling, bloating, flatulence, not normal bowel movements, digestion just seems off.

Reminds of @r-2 I think they had mega issues with a longer experiment with lentils, that caused a big intestinal flare-up, bleeding...  hope they are well, haven't seen them on here in awhile.  Sounds like another similar story.

Quote from Andrew B on January 31, 2023, 12:03 pm

@orion yes, I got into difficulties over a year and a half ago eating too many beans. Eating cabbage and potatoes caused weird cramping problems. Now I've been eating 3-4 eggs a day for over 9 months I'm eating loads of fibre without any problems. I did eat iceberg lettuce and spelt wheat at the start of the eggs-periment. Eventually the bloating does go down. Perhaps spelt helped the gut bacteria towards bifido too. The eggs very gradually improve bowel movements. Some people might need more B1 and I increased B1 foods like sunflower seeds.

Quote from Inger on February 1, 2023, 2:13 am

I have just started the bean experiment, doing kinda the bean protocol. I crave the black beans, they are sooo good. That we need soluble fiber to soak up stuff that the body wants to get rid of makes so much sense to me. Maybe it was not so important  100 years ago, or living in complete natural environment, but we get so much poison these days we just cant avoid.

I have done pretty much carnivore for many years and somehow I have the feeling it makes the liver not detoxing right.

I am including eggs now too after avoiding them for a year or so, and doing some red beets and also spelt once in a while. And iceberg salad. Around a pound of meat/day. Some nuts. I dont want to run into issues :(. So far I seem to tolerate the beans well, just a little gas but tolerable, because I eat huge amounts.. 2-3 cans a day and usually 1 can in one sitting because I crave the black beans so much I cant stop 😉