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chickadee's rough start, and hopeful recovery
Hi!
I discovered Grant's book "Extinguishing the Fires of Hell" book this week and just started "Poisoning for Profits." I have been ravenous for the information, as I suffer from many "autoimmune" diseases including non-alcoholic fatty liver, prediabetes, endometriosis / adenomyosis, pernicious / macrocytic anemia, tinnitus, anatomical deformities, fibromyalgia, medication / environmental allergies, and many more. I am in my mid-thirties, and ailing health has been an experience of mine for about 20 years. Longer really, as I've had eczema, IBS, and recurring throat / ear infections since I was a young child.
I am overwhelmed about where to start. I am also excited to discover this information. I know this is the start of a long journey, but to have a direction is very empowering.
See, I've been trying all sorts of foods and supplements that often leave me feeling more sick. Earlier this week was the last straw. I tried cod liver oil for the first time, and I immediately got a headache. I thought, either my body is detoxing something in a bizarre way, or this stuff is really making me sick. I did a little research, not expecting to find anything. Thankfully, I found Grant's name mentioned in an Amazon one-star review critiquing the "Root Cause Protocol." I was not following that protocol, but have been trying out some of the Weston A. Price / Sally Fallon-type ancestral foods, based on the principles of the Healthy Home Economist and others.
I am concerned because I know I already have issues with my detox pathways. E.g., I have heavy metal poisoning, and my naturopath had me order some DMSA to clear it out, but I know that I can't even handle my daily toxic burden. And I have a lot of questions about dietary and lifestyle specifics, because I have leaky gut and a ton of food intolerances.
Here's a summary for why I believe that vitamin A as a poison is true, at least for me:
As I mentioned, I have had complex diseases for many years. Around Christmas, I was infected with "Covid / Omicron," whatever this is. I did some frenzied research and found a naturopath online who recommended loading with high doses of vitamin A at the beginning of the illness, as well as vitamin D. I checked in with my naturopath's on-call colleague before attempting it on my own, and she confirmed that high doses of vitamin A are used in cases of pediatric measles, and that it should be fine. I took a toxic amount of vitamin A and vitamin D multiple times.
Candidly, I took a ridiculous number of supplements during my first two weeks of Covid. I had a checklist of them about 20+ long. So when I turned very yellow and experienced such visual disturbances that I could barely see, I was inclined to blame it on Ivermectin. And I am sure that Ivermectin didn't help my liver, but maybe it's because my system was already deep into acute vitamin A toxicity. I didn't even take that much Ivermectin, but every time I did, I experienced faded vision and intense dizziness. It did lower my blood pressure, which was likely high due to a cytokine storm. I was convinced that the Ivermectin had such an intense effect because I have an underlying gut infection, but who knows.
Fun tidbit: in addition to taking many oral supplements, I nebulized food-grade hydrogen peroxide diluted with saline, which brought my oxygen up from 92 to 98% saturation. Not saying anyone should do it, but I really wanted to stay out of the hospital.
I embarked on a self-led "cleanse" and cut down my supplements, and drank fresh beet/apple/ginger juice and chicken stock for a couple days. I was relieved when my normal color started to return, and I went back to eating and supplementing normally. But I still had an undertone of yellow for about a month or so. When I went for blood work a month into this, my liver enzymes were within the normal range, so I was relieved.
I've been somewhat debilitated since Covid, even moreso than before. The first complication is that my blood pressure was extremely low. Like 85/45 would be a normal reading. That has since stabilized somewhat, but still drops when I eat the wrong thing, which leads me to the second complication. My food intolerances have been off the chart! I hadn't figured out the pattern, but I have kept detailed food logs for about 5 months now. I got IgE testing last week at the allergist, and all was negative.
Now, armed with this new perspective, looking at the list, I can see some patterns: cantaloupe, pumpkin, carrot juice, papaya, eggs, tomatoes, butternut squash, mango, citrus peppers... Vitamin A! I am also wondering about oxalates because almonds, chocolate, turmeric, etc. seem to be an issue. Some things don't seem to fit any pattern, such as pecans, macadamia nuts, etc. And for years I've struggled with dairy, beef, cruciferous vegetables, gluten, peanuts, etc. I had an intense IBS reaction to a small bit of raw radish sprouts (who knew radishes are cruciferous?!). Honestly, it's tough to find a pattern. I spend a lot of time in the bathroom and sometimes on the floor with vasovagal episodes. (A Paleo bar with egg whites and almonds had my BP drop below 70/40..)
Anyway, all this is to say - I think Grant's theory of Vitamin A toxicity is on the right track, as my personal experience confirms it!
I'm lean and have an energetic personality, so I think healthcare practitioners don't expect me to be sick. It's frustrating. I also know that I'm an enigma to the medical professionals I've worked with. My naturopath says that I'm a mystery. She'd rather talk to me about mindfulness meditation and connecting with people, telling me I shouldn't worry so much about my health and spend so much time in the kitchen.
I told her that taking NAC gave me an intense histamine reaction and she said it makes no sense. So I researched it. Maybe SAMe is the limiting factor in my glutathione production? Not planning to take it, as I'm scared of supplements right now. She wants me taking daily glutathione for my multiple chemical sensitivity and to boost my detox pathways. But I've read that exogenous glutathione supplementation may shut down our endogenous production, so I'm not sure how to sustainably boost my own detox pathways.
I'm open to working with people, as my knowledge of physiology is limited. But I am willing to learn and teach myself. I care enough about my health to not leave it in someone else's hands. After all, maybe if I had done my own level-headed research instead of listening to the naturopath about vitamin A at the beginning of Covid, I wouldn't be in this situation as severely. For now, I'm struggling daily just to function, as weakness and a lack of endurance keep me pretty close to home. I work out at the gym, but pain and fatigue keep me from gaining muscle mass.
From the brief research I've done, there seems to be more to this practice than avoiding vitamin A. And yet, it's confusing because some lists have butter on them, like this one:
https://eatbeautiful.net/vitamin-a-detox-diet-free-printable-food-lists-avoid-eat-toxicity/
And yet at the same time, this list seems so limited... I don't understand why fruits must be peeled, nuts must be avoided, etc. What are the reasons for why some foods are ok and some aren't?
I'd really like to understand the "why" as much as the "what," otherwise it feels like I'm just following dogma. If you know of a food chemistry / physiology course that would help build my understanding, please do share.
I also have been trying some more external ways to detox: bentonite clay masks, castor oil packs, coconut oil pulling, and skin brushing. Big fan of bentonite clay, I think that helped lift some brain fog. I unplug my wifi at night and have the mobile data off on my phone. (I don't wear a tinfoil cap, yet ; ) What have you found to be helpful in the detox process?
I'm looking forward to getting on the road to recovery. Thanks for reading and for any suggestions you have!
Welcome, that's quite the laundry list. Hopefully you find some useful info here.
I think there's excellent evidence to support using a meat-heavy diet to cure just about any chronic illness. I've been using a low Vitamin A version to heal from Vitamin A toxicity and believe I am having good success, though it does take a long time depending on how much Vitamin A you've got stored away outside the liver. If you haven't delved into the whole world of carnivore eating, I would suggest watching videos by Anthony Chaffee, Amber O'Hearn, Judy Cho, earlier videos by Paul Saladino (before he started eating fruit and honey regularly), and interviews with Shawn Baker and Mikhaila Peterson.
Others here will advocate for various types of fiber to help detox. As opposed as I am to that general idea, in an effort not to be dogmatic, I will simply say - do your homework and come to your own conclusion. I've listed many reasons I don't think it's necessary or beneficial in my posts, but many members here will attest that fiber has helped them, s0...make what you will of it and try it if the idea speaks to you.
Aside from minimizing Vitamin A intake, the next two most important factors for detoxing Vitamin A are probably (1) bile flow (if you have poor bile output, you are not going to eliminate Vitamin A...I see that you turned yellow rather quickly at one point, which sounds more like bilirubin accumulation due to cholestasis rather than beta-carotene accumulation...read up on cholestasis and see if it matches your symptom patterns), and (2) ensuring that the alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase systems are working effectively by avoiding foods that occupy those pathways and by getting the nutrients that support those pathways.
You can make it as complicated as you want, but one of the many reasons the muscle meat carnivore diet works on so many levels is that it supports all your detox pathways by supplying plenty of bioavailable sulfur and the vitamins, minerals, and amino acids necessary for detox of just about everything, while simultaneously removing almost anything that can cause an inflammatory reaction.
My main word of caution is to start slow because Vitamin A appears to be really caustic when it comes back out of the peripheral tissues. The fiber-pounding crowd has indicated that eating too much, too quickly, can make your symptoms worse. My experience has been that dietary fat is the biggest trigger for Vitamin A dumping, and combining fiber and fat together is usually too intense.
Good luck!
You eat way too many different foods. You will never see a pattern if you eat that many foods.
If I was you I would go muscle meat carnivore for 1-2 months and see what happens.
If you have enough bodyfat I would start off by fasting up to 7 days (drink only water).
These are some foods you mentioned eating: "cantaloupe, pumpkin, carrot juice, papaya, eggs, tomatoes, butternut squash, mango, citrus peppers"
People here will say the vitamin A in these foods is the problem. But I think there is an even bigger problem with these foods. They are histamine liberators (cantaloupe, papaya, eggs, tomatoes, mango, citrus) and some of them are full of lectins (squash, pumpkin).
If you suffer from autoimmune desease the most important thing in my experience is: Stop eating all histamin liberators. This is by far what helped me the most.
Study this list and avoid all foods that have an "L" or an "?" in the "liberator"-section of this list. https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/downloads/foodlist/21_FoodList_EN_alphabetic_withCateg.pdf
So in conclusion:
- Try carnivore, muscle meat only from beef or lamb
- If you eat plants make sure they are no histamine liberators.
- Stop all dairy and eggs. These are horrible foods for people with autoimmune problems.
- If you are like me, you must also avoid all starchy foods like grains or potatoes. But this is an individual thing, you might be fine with white rice. I for myself do better with raw honey or other simple sugars as a carb source.
I know this sounds like a lot of things to do/avoid, but if you have these kinds of health problems you have to do extreme things to get your health back.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on April 27, 2022, 7:57 pmWelcome, that's quite the laundry list. Hopefully you find some useful info here.
I think there's excellent evidence to support using a meat-heavy diet to cure just about any chronic illness. I've been using a low Vitamin A version to heal from Vitamin A toxicity and believe I am having good success, though it does take a long time depending on how much Vitamin A you've got stored away outside the liver. If you haven't delved into the whole world of carnivore eating, I would suggest watching videos by Anthony Chaffee, Amber O'Hearn, Judy Cho, earlier videos by Paul Saladino (before he started eating fruit and honey regularly), and interviews with Shawn Baker and Mikhaila Peterson.
Others here will advocate for various types of fiber to help detox. As opposed as I am to that general idea, in an effort not to be dogmatic, I will simply say - do your homework and come to your own conclusion. I've listed many reasons I don't think it's necessary or beneficial in my posts, but many members here will attest that fiber has helped them, s0...make what you will of it and try it if the idea speaks to you.
Aside from minimizing Vitamin A intake, the next two most important factors for detoxing Vitamin A are probably (1) bile flow (if you have poor bile output, you are not going to eliminate Vitamin A...I see that you turned yellow rather quickly at one point, which sounds more like bilirubin accumulation due to cholestasis rather than beta-carotene accumulation...read up on cholestasis and see if it matches your symptom patterns), and (2) ensuring that the alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase systems are working effectively by avoiding foods that occupy those pathways and by getting the nutrients that support those pathways.
You can make it as complicated as you want, but one of the many reasons the muscle meat carnivore diet works on so many levels is that it supports all your detox pathways by supplying plenty of bioavailable sulfur and the vitamins, minerals, and amino acids necessary for detox of just about everything, while simultaneously removing almost anything that can cause an inflammatory reaction.
My main word of caution is to start slow because Vitamin A appears to be really caustic when it comes back out of the peripheral tissues. The fiber-pounding crowd has indicated that eating too much, too quickly, can make your symptoms worse. My experience has been that dietary fat is the biggest trigger for Vitamin A dumping, and combining fiber and fat together is usually too intense.
Good luck!
@wavygravygadzooks, thank you!
One reason I am hesitant to eat strictly carnivore is that it would be very limited for me. I have intense reactions to beef, pork, lamb, etc., so I would be limited to chicken, turkey, and fish. I have heard that fish and fowl isn't enough to survive on.
I did have negative IgE to beef and pork, and my alpha-gal antibodies came back negative. But every time I have the slightest bit of any part of a mammal, I experience violent, immediate GI symptoms. So unfortunately, red meat is not something I can have.
What are your thoughts about purines converting into excess uric acid on the carnivore diet? And/or, are there interviews by the people you've mentioned that address this?
I've heard that the carnivore diet has a pharmacological effect that masks symptoms, but not sure how scientifically sound the arguments are on either side.
Thanks again for sharing.
Quote from Max on April 27, 2022, 10:48 pmYou eat way too many different foods. You will never see a pattern if you eat that many foods.
If I was you I would go muscle meat carnivore for 1-2 months and see what happens.
If you have enough bodyfat I would start off by fasting up to 7 days (drink only water).
These are some foods you mentioned eating: "cantaloupe, pumpkin, carrot juice, papaya, eggs, tomatoes, butternut squash, mango, citrus peppers"
People here will say the vitamin A in these foods is the problem. But I think there is an even bigger problem with these foods. They are histamine liberators (cantaloupe, papaya, eggs, tomatoes, mango, citrus) and some of them are full of lectins (squash, pumpkin).
If you suffer from autoimmune desease the most important thing in my experience is: Stop eating all histamin liberators. This is by far what helped me the most.
Study this list and avoid all foods that have an "L" or an "?" in the "liberator"-section of this list. https://www.mastzellaktivierung.info/downloads/foodlist/21_FoodList_EN_alphabetic_withCateg.pdf
So in conclusion:
- Try carnivore, muscle meat only from beef or lamb
- If you eat plants make sure they are no histamine liberators.
- Stop all dairy and eggs. These are horrible foods for people with autoimmune problems.
- If you are like me, you must also avoid all starchy foods like grains or potatoes. But this is an individual thing, you might be fine with white rice. I for myself do better with raw honey or other simple sugars as a carb source.
I know this sounds like a lot of things to do/avoid, but if you have these kinds of health problems you have to do extreme things to get your health back.
Thanks, @max-3 for your feedback.
I feel I have been avoiding a lot of histamine liberators once I figured out I was having a problem. That's a great list by the way, the most compete I've seen so far.
Here's a list of my current foods (no one follow this please haha):
organic apples
hemp seeds
romaine lettuce
turkey and chicken in many forms - roasted, bone broth, bacon, pepperoni
perch, tilapia
grapes
blue/black/raspberries, dark cherries
maple syrup, ceylon cinnamon
oregano, basil, marjoram
90% cocoa - makes my headaches go away for some reason
pistachios, cashews, coconut - these don't seem to be going well for some reason
veggies I may discontinue due to A content: snow peas, spinach, chard, pea sprouts
aromatics that seem to bother me sometimes (sulfur?): onions, garlic
I had been eating fermented cabbage etc., but I am not so sure about it anymore
fats: olive oil, avocado oil, ghee (too much vit A, or helpful?!)
stinging nettle and marshmallow tea
Yes, I, like you, must avoid: potatoes, all grains, probably all legumes too. They will spike my blood sugar to 200. I am basically a diabetic who has managed to keep my HbA1c under 6 by avoiding grains. Dairy (besides ghee) has been off the list for years. Eggs make me itch...
Any time I've tried fasting, I feel awful. I have problems with my blood sugar plummeting. I am intrigued by the idea, though, and would like to figure out a way to do it. I'm definitely open to extreme, as long as it ends up helping and not causing more issues.
Thanks again!
Aside from minimizing Vitamin A intake, the next two most important factors for detoxing Vitamin A are probably (1) bile flow (if you have poor bile output, you are not going to eliminate Vitamin A...I see that you turned yellow rather quickly at one point, which sounds more like bilirubin accumulation due to cholestasis rather than beta-carotene accumulation...read up on cholestasis and see if it matches your symptom patterns), and (2) ensuring that the alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase systems are working effectively by avoiding foods that occupy those pathways and by getting the nutrients that support those pathways.
Actually, I am surprised that cholestasis doesn't appear to be a major issue right now. 10ish years ago, I had an ultrasound which showed hardening of the gall bladder. I was in the ER for a gallbladder attack that evolved to shock after I had high-potentcy fish oil. But none of the symptoms of cholestasis seem to be ringing a bell right now.
But the bell is ringing for: "alcohol dehydrogenase and aldehyde dehydrogenase systems are working effectively." They're not... I have immediate issues even with pears, which I understand are high in aldehyde. I am totally unfamiliar with these pathways, the foods that block them, and the nutrients that support them.
Is there a resource that you'd recommend for reading up on them? I can't seem to find one that's not all big pharma-heavy in my searching.
Thanks again!
You still eat way too many foods, some of which are even histamin liberators (onion, garlic) and extremely hard to digest (like nuts and seeds). If you are like me you can have absolutely zero histamin liberators. Doesnt matter how little the quantity of the food. You need to be strict about this.
If you want to get better fast you need to keep it simple.
- For carbs eat peeled apples or grapes + honey or maple syrup in a smoothie dilluted with water.
- For fat eat olive oil, avocado oil or tallow. Eat the fat together with your meat meal or with your veggies. Stop eating all other fats, especially coconut fat. Coconut is horrible for vitamin A toxic people. Grant wrote about it in his book.
An example meal plan would be:
- First meal: Smoothie (see above)
- Second and third meal: Meat, veggies + oil
- You can snack with honey between meals if you want, but I wouldnt make it the norm.
You dont need to eat anything else.
Quote from Max on April 28, 2022, 8:40 amYou still eat way too many foods, some of which are even histamin liberators (onion, garlic) and extremely hard to digest (like nuts and seeds). If you are like me you can have absolutely zero histamin liberators. Doesnt matter how little the quantity of the food. You need to be strict about this.
If you want to get better fast you need to keep it simple.
- For carbs eat peeled apples or grapes + honey or maple syrup in a smoothie dilluted with water.
- For fat eat olive oil, avocado oil or tallow. Eat the fat together with your meat meal or with your veggies. Stop eating all other fats, especially coconut fat. Coconut is horrible for vitamin A toxic people. Grant wrote about it in his book.
An example meal plan would be:
- First meal: Smoothie (see above)
- Second and third meal: Meat, veggies + oil
- You can snack with honey between meals if you want, but I wouldnt make it the norm.
You dont need to eat anything else.
Thanks @max-3, that sounds good to me. Is Grant's info re: coconut oil in "Poisoning for Profits?"
Why do the grapes and apples need to be peeled?
Is bone broth safe/good? Nothing added, just boiled chicken & turkey bones and skin.
Which veggies are safe?
Thanks again!
Mary Ruddick supposedly healed herself from some mysterious, chronic illness by primarily drinking homemade chicken broth (meat broth) for months on end. While I would be hesitant to recommend doing carnivore with just poultry and certain fish, it might be better than some other options for you at this point. However, it seems very strange that you can't tolerate any red meat, but you can tolerate poultry. The only reason I've ever heard for something like that is being bitten by a lonestar tick, but I can't recall if that results in a measurable immune response like IgE or if it's purely symptomatic. Do you have reason to believe you may have ever been bitten by one of these ticks? If you have, you might also be a good candidate for lyme disease...I've heard people with lyme can wind up with all kinds of undiagnosable symptom patterns that are just terrible.
Judy Cho has interviewed two different doctors back-to-back about purines and uric acid. Both interviews are worth watching on her YouTube channel.
So, you seem to be digesting fats OK? Are your stools abnormal in color or consistency?
The only place I recall seeing foodlists for ALDH and ADH are on Garrett Smith's website. I'm extremely hesitant to recommend you go to his website, because there is all kinds of incorrect information over there, but the ALDH and ADH list may be one of the few things that are pretty reliable, along with the description of Vitamin A metabolism to its end-product retinoic acid.
Where did you hear that the carnivore diet "masks" symptoms? I think that's complete BS. The main reason people relapse after returning to eating plant foods is probably that they have developed an immune response to plant compounds, which can take a very long time to disappear. Think about how long your immune system provides immunity to pathogens...it has a really good memory! That's why many people have life-long allergies to substances that are not overtly harmful, like pollen and dander.
BTW black-capped chickadees are one of my favorite birds...they're one of only about 10 species that overwinter where I live, they're tough as hell, and their ebullient calls and antics always put a smile on my face, especially in the dead of winter when everybody is holed up against the dark and cold and the chickadees seem completely impervious. Good choice for a username!