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Could Grant have had oxalate poisoning?
Wanted to post this here instead of that other unnamed network because Grant doesn't censor. I'm 9 months into low vA and I recently noticed significant overlap between this group and the low oxalate community. After reading a ton of material including Sally Norton's book 'Toxic Superfoods," it leaves me wondering if what Grant really had was oxalate poisoning and not vA toxicity? The diet that he included in one of his posts has him consuming just 75 mg of oxalates, which could have been a drastic difference from what he was consuming before (that I do not know). The 'detox setback' he describes for others also sounds very very similar to oxalate dumping, which people who have adopted a carnivore or accidental low oxalate diet are likely to experience.
- Rice ~ ¾ cup (measured dry)
- Black Beans ~ 250- 350 ml ~ ¾ of a can
- Beef / Bisson ~ 300 – 400 grams
I am not posting this with any intention to discredit Grant; far from it. I am curious what people think from a scientific perspective. Particularly, what specifically about Grant's recovery would you say confirms vA over oxalate poisoning?
I've read his first 2 books and all of the vA theories put forth by Grant make sense, and while I've ventured into the oxalate world, I do still believe the vA theories have merit and continue to do vA in addition to low ox in my diet. Thanks in advance!
I believe he has been dumping oxalates as well, but not necessarily exclusively. It doesn't have to be either or. The symptoms overlap each other so impossoble to really know what is what. I have for sure been experiencing ox dumping.
This is intriguing. How do the low-oxalate people stop their detox side effects? If they have a solution, maybe it will work with the vitA detox too.
Why do some people have problems with dietary oxalates and not others?
Healthy volunteers have been measured to absorb between 0.75 and 1.9% of oxalates they consume. Susan Owens, a prominent oxalate research, reports that this increases to 50% in some individuals. This all comes down to digestive function. Under ideal circumstances, the body is well-protected from oxalates through three mechanisms:
- oxalate degrading bacteria, such as oxalobacter formigenes. This is a bacterial species that is easily wiped out by antibiotics.
- mineral chelation. Around 80% of the calcium you consume will not be absorbed from the gut. It is deliberated left in the intestines, where it can bind free oxalic acid, and it does so easily (forming a calcium oxalate crystal). Calcium oxalate is not very soluble, thus cannot cross the intestinal barrier easily and therefore leaves the body in the stool. Problems occur when fat absorption is compromised. as this sees the undigested fats form complexes with the minerals; this reduces the amount of minerals left to chelate the oxalic acids.
- increased intestinal permeability. If the oxalic acid has not been degraded by bacteria or chelated by minerals, it can have a run at the intestinal lining. If the digestive lining is in a good state, minimal absorption of oxalates will occur. If it is inflamed and more permeable (‘leaky gut’), oxalates will cross the intestinal barrier easily via the paracellular route (between the junctions), leading to a massive build-up inside the body. Some individuals (with a SLC26A6 polymorphism) may be more suspectible to oxalate absorption via the transcellular route (though intestinal cells), although this needs further research.
The higher the accumulation of oxalates, the more likely that the individual has no oxalate-degrading bacteria, do es not digest fats properly and has inflamed/leaky gut lining. This is why dietary oxalates cause havoc in them and not others.
Are there other sources of oxalates?
Unfortunately so. Non-dietary oxalates can come from four sources:
- Intestinal infections. This can result in a huge amount of oxalate formation (as species such as candida and aspergillus have been shown to be prolific producers of oxalic acid). Candida also produces arabinose, which may impact on endogenous formation through anti-B6 effects, and all yeast produce erythroascorbic acid (discussed below). In my experience, intestinal infections and oxalate issues tend to go hand-in-hand.
- Endogenous production. A combination of genetic susceptibility and a lack of enzyme co-factors (eg. Vitamin A, B1, B6, Magnesium) can result in the mis-processing of amino acids and sees the liver form oxalates from ‘safe’ amino acids, like hydroxyproline (mainly found in collagen).
- Excess Vitamin C. A further way that oxalates accumulation can occur is from excess Vitamin C intake during periods of oxidative stress (once vitamin C, aka ascorbic acid, is oxidized into dihydroascorbic acid, it can then be further hydrolyzed into diketogulonic acid and then into oxalic acid). Microbial production of erthyroascobic acid, from intestinal pathogens, may also contribute to this pathway.
Suddenly, it’s no surprise that 91% of the individuals included in my 2017 Chronic Fatigue Survey showed raised urinary oxalates…
Edit: should probably tag @davidw
Oxalate has been an interest of mine, as it has really helped explained some of my symptoms 😁. What is recomended is (from my understanding), don't go too low too fast (as in decrease slowly), and take calcium with meals to bind oxalate. Also don't gorge on high ox foods intermittently as that can be a trigger as well. But there is so little research on the area, and probably the individual factor as well (methylation issues can potentionally lead to oxalate issues and a load of other stuff, MTHFR polymorphisms can hinder detox if one is not aware one has it) it's impossible to know for sure other than trial and error (and/or testing). One thing is taking care of not running into defiencies, whis is most likely going to happen if one goes on a resteictive diet avoiding all A and all ox and shit will hit the fan. Keeping some A and some ox in the diet, eating enough calories and nutrients by a varied diet and go on with ones life is probably a far better approach than being anal about trace amounts, feeling like garbage and over analyzing every little detail creating more stress and forgetting about living. But I believe oxalate issues is a symptom of something else, just as I believe vA poisoning can be, unless one has taken really high amounts of supplements or high liver intake.
Bicarbonate has helped me a lot with oxalate dumping symptoms. I take a gram or so in the morning, or if I wake up at night with back pain, which I haven't done in a while. If I up the nuts and seeds I will run into oxalate issues for sure so if I have them, I have them with low fat yoghurt (for example) and small amount, and if I have anything rhubarb I feel it immediately, it's not even delayed so that shit I don't even go near anymore 😂. My gut was ruined by antibiotics 4 years ago after repeated bacrerial infections while I had a nephrostomy and when I realized the connection and could ask for another non-oxalobacter targeting AB the damage had already been done. But as I most likely have some sort of MTHFR issue due to constant b12 deficiency symptoms while being "in range", which my dad also has, (and methylcobalamin actually helps us both) which doesn't help and could explain my severe endometriosis and ADHD amongst others as my body cannot detox properly. I will see my doc next week, asking for a homocystein test and free b12 to complete my b12 test. The genetic testning i'll probably have to fix myself.
So this journey really is individual, and there is a lot of black/white thinking on here, believing vA is poison only and everyone should avoid trace anounts, and same for oxalate, but reality is pretty nuanced and can be highly complex. And the body if functioning properly (as in no deficiencies or genetic variations) should not accumulate toxins unless intake is greater than what can be handled, like if doing things like supplementing or following gurus and their recommendations, or eating a poor diet of mostly enriched and processed foods. I'm going off track, but there are a lot of interesting threads on here bringing up these things, there is a thread on PUFA being antidote, and a thread on SAM, (and methylation issues can cause problems with both, ao there is the genetic factor again). As I have been nerdin into genetics lately, the other day I cane across an interesting duscussion by an ND that works with MTHFR, which could explain bad reaction to eggs or onions (sulfur in general) which one really needs to detox, and some in here has had really bad reactions to both. Could their reaction be due to vA, or due to genetics? And an under methylator, as well as undernourished people, can be really helped by choline, for example.
Most stuff in here is pure speculation based upon this theory that vA is the root of all evil. Some get better and move on with their lives, not even being strict noA. Some do not and it's easy to think one isn't strict enough if stuck in vA=poison=the root of all evil, when it could be because they have genetic detox issues and that is why they have problems to start with, maybe without even having gorged on liver or FCLO like many on here have, but the symotoms are the same.
And this same little genetic tidbit, MTHFR (and variationsrik thereof) can explain why some do great on lots of veggies like being plant based, and why some feel like pure garbage on it. Veggie type need a lot of folate to manage methylation. The other will push methylation too low and therefore feel like shit. And that is just one example of all the variations. We are all individuals, therefore we cannot all take the same approach.
Oxalates affect Vitamin A metabolism. For some people it's obvious. For others it's not so much of a problem possibly less antibiotics and better gut health. Strong initial Vitamin A detox can increase the issue. It's all connected. Meri Arthur followed low oxalate theories for years and then started making the connection to Vitamin A toxicity. Later videos may have better answers. Start with this one. She also has a blog. Dietary Oxalates, Altered Vitamin A Metabolism, and Neurodegeneration (CHECK UPDATE IN DESCRIPTION) - YouTube
Quote from Liz on August 5, 2023, 10:10 pmI believe he has been dumping oxalates as well, but not necessarily exclusively. It doesn't have to be either or. The symptoms overlap each other so impossoble to really know what is what. I have for sure been experiencing ox dumping.
Very true about it not needing it to be one or the other. I actually think a lot of answers lie in the nuance and the overlap. For me the overlap was crucial because I think my issues were caused by oxalates, not vA. I went low vA for 9 months with great results but with some nagging setbacks. I found the oxalate info and now believe this is the root cause as I've started seeing even more improvements almost immediately. Luckily for me, the low vA diet inadvertently put me on a relatively low oxalate diet (probably consuming 200-300 mg compared with 500-1000 mg before that ). Now I am working on bringing down under 100 mg. Obviously, Grant has proved that you don't need vA either so I intend to stay off of it generally, but am way less afraid now, and may incorporate up to 100 IU a day just to satisfy some other perceived dietary requirements.
I would really love to know more about Grant's diet prior to the detox (I believe he briefly mentions some foods but not an extensive list of what he was eating over the years). From my understanding, it doesn't take a lot to have oxalate issues, and you could even become toxic on a standard diet. He of course proposes that this same concept also applies to vA, which could also be true. All very interesting...
Interesting thread! Good links.
Quote from Andrew B on August 6, 2023, 1:10 amOxalates affect Vitamin A metabolism. For some people it's obvious. For others it's not so much of a problem possibly less antibiotics and better gut health. Strong initial Vitamin A detox can increase the issue. It's all connected. Meri Arthur followed low oxalate theories for years and then started making the connection to Vitamin A toxicity. Later videos may have better answers. Start with this one. She also has a blog. Dietary Oxalates, Altered Vitamin A Metabolism, and Neurodegeneration (CHECK UPDATE IN DESCRIPTION) - YouTube
Thank you for sharing this. Good analysis of how they're interconnected.