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Protecting from the unavoidable formation of A2E
I've been looking around for how to better handle A2E formation in the brain. My primary thought is to re-introduce Vitamin E as it's pretty much missing from my diet for the past 6 months (I've been detoxing for 8, but I still had EVOO in my diet until 2 months in, and EVOO has plenty of VitE).
I have no evidence yet that VitE helps, but I know VitE helps with cell membranes which may potentially reduce the load on ethanolamine recycling (which lowers the probability of A2E formation).
Lecithin is contra-indicated as it would add to the Phosphatidylethanolamine (PE) pool, I suspect...and raise the probability of A2E formation.
I did run across a reference to Cyclodextrins in the Eye thread on this site. At first, it seemed magical! Cyclodextrins have been found to stop retinal-related eye issues thru eye drops in mice! (wowsers!)
But, I immediately ran into this article:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5676048/
They are unaware how many people have ear issues, but...I have a hunch. It probably damages the A2E molecule enough to damage ear organs. *sigh* Tinnitus and ear issues are a big symptom in my VitA overdosing.
And other thoughts on how to protect from A2E formation?
@shannon -- I admit that I'm not very knowledgeable about hearing loss or tinnitus with regard to vitamin A. However, I know of this study (https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00016480701387132) in which good treatment results were obtained using vitamin E and vitamin C supplementation.
It might be worth looking into further.
I don't know about A2E but here is some research on vitamin A concentration in the inner ears of guinea pig. A 1978 study called:
"EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES ON THE ROLE OF
VITAMIN A IN THE INNER EAR" by Richard A. Chole.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/01945998780860s411 (available at sci-hub)
Quote from the discussion on how extremely high the concentration of vitamin A in the inner ear was:
"Compounds with vitamin A activity are found in all mammalian tissues in the range of 1 microg/gm of tissue (Sauberlich, Hodges, Wallace, et al 1974,47). The main storage site of vitamin A is the parenchymal cell of the liver (Sherman, 1969,48). The vitamin A concentration of liver varies widely from species to species but is generally at least one order of magnitude [x10] higher than other tissues. The concentration of vitamin A in the pooled tissue of the inner ear of the guinea pig is ten times as high as these other tissues."
Quote about how retinoic acid (vitamin A acid) lead to disease of the inner ear:
"Because the level of vitamin A is so high in the cochlea, feeding experimental animals a vitamin A-free diet may not totally deplete the inner ear of the vitamin sufficiently to allow histologic change. This difficulty was overcome by substituting vitamin A with vitamin A acid in experimental animals. Only after this had been done were histologic changes found in the inner ear. This finding may explain the apparent paradox of high cochlear vitamin A levels and the absence of histologic changes in the early experiments on vitamin A deprivation."
Quote from David on August 19, 2023, 5:42 amI don't know about A2E but here is some research on vitamin A concentration in the inner ears of guinea pig. A 1978 study called:
"EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES ON THE ROLE OF
VITAMIN A IN THE INNER EAR" by Richard A. Chole.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/01945998780860s411 (available at sci-hub)Quote from the discussion on how extremely high the concentration of vitamin A in the inner ear was:
"Compounds with vitamin A activity are found in all mammalian tissues in the range of 1 microg/gm of tissue (Sauberlich, Hodges, Wallace, et al 1974,47). The main storage site of vitamin A is the parenchymal cell of the liver (Sherman, 1969,48). The vitamin A concentration of liver varies widely from species to species but is generally at least one order of magnitude [x10] higher than other tissues. The concentration of vitamin A in the pooled tissue of the inner ear of the guinea pig is ten times as high as these other tissues."Quote about how retinoic acid (vitamin A acid) lead to disease of the inner ear:
"Because the level of vitamin A is so high in the cochlea, feeding experimental animals a vitamin A-free diet may not totally deplete the inner ear of the vitamin sufficiently to allow histologic change. This difficulty was overcome by substituting vitamin A with vitamin A acid in experimental animals. Only after this had been done were histologic changes found in the inner ear. This finding may explain the apparent paradox of high cochlear vitamin A levels and the absence of histologic changes in the early experiments on vitamin A deprivation."
I have inner ear problems. I don't understand what you are explaining, how can I lower the levels of vitamin A in the inner ear?
Quote from David on August 19, 2023, 5:42 amI don't know about A2E but here is some research on vitamin A concentration in the inner ears of guinea pig. A 1978 study called:
"EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES ON THE ROLE OF
VITAMIN A IN THE INNER EAR" by Richard A. Chole.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/01945998780860s411 (available at sci-hub)Quote from the discussion on how extremely high the concentration of vitamin A in the inner ear was:
"Compounds with vitamin A activity are found in all mammalian tissues in the range of 1 microg/gm of tissue (Sauberlich, Hodges, Wallace, et al 1974,47). The main storage site of vitamin A is the parenchymal cell of the liver (Sherman, 1969,48). The vitamin A concentration of liver varies widely from species to species but is generally at least one order of magnitude [x10] higher than other tissues. The concentration of vitamin A in the pooled tissue of the inner ear of the guinea pig is ten times as high as these other tissues."Quote about how retinoic acid (vitamin A acid) lead to disease of the inner ear:
"Because the level of vitamin A is so high in the cochlea, feeding experimental animals a vitamin A-free diet may not totally deplete the inner ear of the vitamin sufficiently to allow histologic change. This difficulty was overcome by substituting vitamin A with vitamin A acid in experimental animals. Only after this had been done were histologic changes found in the inner ear. This finding may explain the apparent paradox of high cochlear vitamin A levels and the absence of histologic changes in the early experiments on vitamin A deprivation."
"This difficulty was overcome by substituting vitamin A with vitamin A acid in experimental animals."
Followed by a:
'It rubs the retinoic acid on the ear.' (Silence of the Lambs quip)
Uh...no thank you.
Surely there is another way!
Something I was trying before all of this mess was using Ozone gas in the ears. I actually do think it "works" to reduce retinol levels locally, BUT it does it very quickly (like the sun does on the skin).
Anecdotally, during a period I was pulsing 25,000 IU Retinyl Palmitate pills that I chewed, I also did use ozone gas in the ears at home. A couple of times I ended up with some pretty bad drainage and ear inflammation that was pretty painful.
Quote from David on August 19, 2023, 5:42 amI don't know about A2E but here is some research on vitamin A concentration in the inner ears of guinea pig. A 1978 study called:
"EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES ON THE ROLE OF
VITAMIN A IN THE INNER EAR" by Richard A. Chole.
DOI: https://doi.org/10.1177/01945998780860s411 (available at sci-hub)Quote from the discussion on how extremely high the concentration of vitamin A in the inner ear was:
"Compounds with vitamin A activity are found in all mammalian tissues in the range of 1 microg/gm of tissue (Sauberlich, Hodges, Wallace, et al 1974,47). The main storage site of vitamin A is the parenchymal cell of the liver (Sherman, 1969,48). The vitamin A concentration of liver varies widely from species to species but is generally at least one order of magnitude [x10] higher than other tissues. The concentration of vitamin A in the pooled tissue of the inner ear of the guinea pig is ten times as high as these other tissues."Quote about how retinoic acid (vitamin A acid) lead to disease of the inner ear:
"Because the level of vitamin A is so high in the cochlea, feeding experimental animals a vitamin A-free diet may not totally deplete the inner ear of the vitamin sufficiently to allow histologic change. This difficulty was overcome by substituting vitamin A with vitamin A acid in experimental animals. Only after this had been done were histologic changes found in the inner ear. This finding may explain the apparent paradox of high cochlear vitamin A levels and the absence of histologic changes in the early experiments on vitamin A deprivation."
I have to add this.
I started doing butter coffee ("Bulletproof Coffee") the year or so before my tinnitus onset (and major VitA issues that I thought were other things including virus, Hyperthyroid, B6 toxicity, etc.)
I then moved to Ghee in my butter coffee that I made at home...daily, multiple cups of blended coffee. Boy did it taste good! LOL
At any rate, it locally absorbed I am sure, and likely allowed build-up in ear organs.
Later, I did the same "chewing" retinyl palmitate pills, and "chewing" fish oil pills.
I bet people that have done cod liver oil may have run into similar challenges.
Here's one of my ghee making session. "Liquid gold..." aptly entitled on my FB from December 2014.
It is dangerous to be deceived and go straight for the gold, you have to mine it to make it yours. That's why we're on the low-vitamin A train, which twists and turns its way to the center of our souls, where those who persevere will find gold. The track is long and arduous, but worth every personal struggle.
Quote from Hermes on August 19, 2023, 11:13 amIt is dangerous to be deceived and go straight for the gold, you have to mine it to make it yours. That's why we're on the low-vitamin A train, which twists and turns its way to the center of our souls, where those who persevere will find gold. The track is long and arduous, but worth every personal struggle.
Hi, ho! It's off to black beans and rice we go! Twisty, curvy, deep in the mines we find not gold, but platinum! Gold's nemesis, and antidote.
LOVE THE PROSE!!
Hahaha, and I love your humorous twist. 🙂
ok, wow, I didn't know what I was missing here in this thread! Poetry.
Regarding ears, which maybe this should be off on it's own thread:
Something that I noticed that I really didn't even want to say because it is kind of gross and I wasn't sure it was for real. I think my body shuttled carotenes to my ears!
Husband bought some apricot-filled cookies that are like little pies. And it had been soooo long since I had one. I'm pretty careful about carotenes, although not Grant-level of careful. My diet is much heavier in VA than carotene. So, for a week I ate those carotene-filled luscious morsels. And you know what? My earwax changed back to orange.
It made me think about how, earlier this year, I had that external ear infection that was SO BAD. (IMO it didn't stay external) Really knocked me on my butt.
Gosh, could it be that were really do need some carotenes in our ear wax?
(just for the record, I'm a tinnitus, vertigo sufferer too, my vertigo has been pretty good with the years on VA reduction, although the ear infection triggered it a bit). (high butter, high cod liver oil, high carotene intake for many years prior to Grant's work)
Just one more thing, and I will stop editing this post: I've come to suspect that VA detox of the ears happens through the nose, (making the nose unhappy/itchy/sticky/sore)