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The Anti-Egg Thread š«š„
The title is meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, as I donāt wish to antagonize or dissuade the eggsperimenters. šĀ Thereās no āone pathā to healing, and Iām rooting for everyone to become well! š
However, I tend to get uncomfortable when fear-mongering is accompanied by absolutes (on either side of this debate), because both ārulesā and āfearā can shut down intuition.
The healthiest person I have ever known, one of my close relatives who is currently in their mid-90s, is an intuitive eater. Growing up, they were given cod liver oil āevery month with an ārā in itā (September through April), and they hated it. As soon as they moved away from home to pursue education in teenagehood, they never touched the stuff again.
My loved one didnāt do any special detox diet. They even enjoyed growing carrots and tomatoes in their garden. But they refused to eat liver, and never touched alcohol, either.
As long as I have known them, they have eaten oatmeal and banana with skim or plant-based milk for breakfast, soup and sandwich for lunch, and meat or fish and potatoes with veggies and a salad for supper. Theyāll never turn down ice cream or chocolate on a day out, but generally limit fried foods and dairy fats and arenāt much into eggs outside of baked goods (their favorite of which being homemade bran muffins).
While this relative does not suffer from dementia or alzheimerās, both their parents, who had continued the unfortunate cod liver oil regime, died suffering with those conditions. š
And this was, of course, before the days of glyphosate.
I wanted to start this thread by sharing this anecdote, because I think many of us here have a tendency to ignore our intuition in order to embrace extremes. Maybe extremes are necessary in some situations, but I think weād do well to set our esteemed logic aside every now and then in order to make space to listen to and reestablish trust with our bodies, too.
Starting this thread as a place to...
...share (non-egg) food-based choline sources that work for you!
...present arguments which have led you to decide against the use of eggs in your recovery from chronic hypervitaminosis A!
...share related experiences and anecdotes!
ETA: Here is a food list I made for myself based upon the data in Chronometer, which isnāt a precise as this one here (which also offers a helpful summary of the choline research from a vegan bias), but is more practical:
Low-Vitamin A Choline Sources
ā*ā denotes foods containing moderate amounts of beta carotene
Serving Size: 106 mg (roughly 25% of the Adequate Intake for Women)
- Ground Beef or Bison (85% lean) 125 g or 1 cup crumbled
- Lentils (boiled) 330 g or 1 1/3 cup
- Chickpeas (boiled) 246 g or 1 1/2 cup
- Lima Beans (boiled) 330 g or 1 3/4 cup
- Black Eyed Peas (boiled) 340 g or 2 cups
- Cauliflower (raw) 240 g or 2 1/3 cup cut pieces
Serving Size: 40 mg (roughly 10% of the Adequate Intake for Women)
- Cabbage (raw and shredded) 380 g or 4 cups pressed down
- Broccoli* (raw) 220 g or 2 1/2 cup chopped
- Bananas (raw) 408 g or 3 large fruits
- Honeydew Melon 550 g or 1/2 large fruit
- Flaxseed (whole) 55 g or 1/3 cup
- Tofu (firm) 110 g or 1/2 cup cubed
- Soy Milk (unfortified and unsweetened) 14 oz
- Soy Beans (boiled) 86 g or 1/2 cup
- Barley (groats) 110 g or 1/2 cup rounded
- Oats (steal cut) 100 g or 1/2 cup rounded
- Potato (boiled without skin) 310 g or 1 large tuber
Serving Size: 20 mg (roughly 5% of the Adequate Intake for Women)
- Sunflower Seeds (raw) 35 g or scant 1/4 cup
- Hemp Hearts* 28 g or 3 tablespoons
- Pumpkin Seeds* (raw) 35 g or rounded 1/4 cup
- Apples (raw without skin) 650 g or 3 large fruits
- Pineapple* (raw) 360 g or 2 cups chunks rounded
- Peaches* or Nectarines* (raw) 350 g or 2 large fruits
- Oranges* (raw) 250 g or 2 medium fruits
- Peanut Butter* (natural) 32 g or 2 tablespoons
- Quinoa (cooked) 90 g or 1/2 cup
Hereās an argument thatās a CON for me, but might be a PRO for someone else.
According to the Iron Disorders Institute:
āEggsĀ contain a compound that impairs absorption of iron.Ā Phosphoprotein called phosvitin is a protein with a iron binding capacity that may be responsible for the low bioavailability of iron from eggs. ThisĀ iron inhibiting characteristic of eggs is called the āegg factor.ā The egg factor has been observed in several separate studies. One boiled egg can reduce absorption of iron in a meal by as much as 28%ā
As an individual who struggles with iron deficiency and hypothesizes she has more stored beta carotene left in her body than anything else, this is a major negative because iron is āused upā in the conversion of beta carotene into retinaldehyde.
Emphasizing fruit consumption, which increases iron absorption, makes more sense in my case. And most fruits contain some choline, too!
It's good to have a contrarian post so we can get a balanced view of things. Eggs have worked wonderfully for me, but obviously they don't work for you @puddleduck, and I'm sure there are others who have had their problems with eggs. It's clear that the choline in eggs is important, I'd even say crucial for vitamin A detoxification. So what can you do to get enough choline in your diet?
A few things come to mind:
- Beef heart is an excellent source of choline (202mg per 100g of beef heart). Unlike eggs, there is almost no retinol in beef. It's not the most palatable food. I've bought mince from the butcher before, usually a couple of kilos, which I put in the freezer. The concern with beef hearts may be that they are also loaded with copper and iron.
- Try to eat a lot more meat to get the choline levels that will make things better for you. Ground beef would probably be a very good alternative, as it is one of the less expensive meats, but unfortunately still more expensive than eggs. By the way, beef hearts are not expensive at all. Butchers usually ask me if I am buying it for the dog. They're surprised when I tell them it's for me. Not to the dogs' delight.
- To really boost choline supplementation could be a good alternative to food. Sunflower lecithin is readily available in bulk, see bulksupplements.com where I bought mine. Phosphatidylcholine is a little harder to come by, I've actually bought it from one place, a 1kg bag, at vitaspace.com. If anyone knows of a good bulk supplier of phosphatidylcholine, please let me know.
So these are a few suggestions for foods and supplements that are high in choline but low in vitamin A. There are other foods that are high in choline but not necessarily low in vitamin A, or problematic for other reasons. It's really not that easy to increase your choline intake without eggs. Finally, I'd like to remind everyone that betaine is choline sparing, so this may be another way to increase the availability of choline in the body.
Quote from puddleduck on June 9, 2023, 6:45 amHereās an argument thatās a CON for me, but might be a PRO for someone else.
According to the Iron Disorders Institute:
āEggsĀ contain a compound that impairs absorption of iron.Ā Phosphoprotein called phosvitin is a protein with a iron binding capacity that may be responsible for the low bioavailability of iron from eggs. ThisĀ iron inhibiting characteristic of eggs is called the āegg factor.ā The egg factor has been observed in several separate studies. One boiled egg can reduce absorption of iron in a meal by as much as 28%ā
That's interesting. For some of us that may actually be a plus for eating a few eggs. I'm a guy and also eat a lot of red meat, and men generally don't have the low iron issues that women are more prone to. In fact we've tended to have the opposite problem. For me then eating an egg or two with a red meat rich meal could be a benefit. I think this is why diet can be such an individual thing.
Thank God somebody created this thread ! LOL
When I first began the vitamin A reduction diet I felt a bit heavy after eating eggs. I think it was not digesting fat well enough or it was a sulphur related issue. So early on I didnt increase the eggs. I had no incentive or information justifying more. Then I became more convinced eggs might be part of the solution. Then when they started working I reasoned it might be choline and sphingomyelin. It also turns out eggs have biotin, selenium, iodine and phosphatidylcholine. So I suggested eggs rather than supplementing choline as that covered what was giving the benefit.
Sometimes when I got to 5 eggs a day there was diarrhea and so I immediately slowed things down again. If somebody tells you to eat eggs then you are prone to keep on with the extra eggs. It's not so much intuition as dont keep pushing the wrong number. That's why my advice has said dont go above 5 because of this issue. And for some it might be constipation it seems. Have too much of any food and you might be susceptible to food intolerances when doing vit A reduction and having leakiness issues. Usually food intolerances get better except where too strong a detox was created. Younger women without genetic issues might need less eggs 1 or 2 a day might be all that's needed.
It could be low B1, low taurine, low magnesium or low potassium causing constipation. Taurine helps muscle contraction and relaxation and may be relevant. Acetylcholine helps digestive motility hence B1 also needed. The extra eggs might need more of these nutrients. Eggs contrary to what the weird Doctor has told us definitely do not slow down the detox. It gets stronger and stronger as the choline is replenished and/or the bile flows better with the phosphatidylcholine. So if you think this is going too slow I'll increase the eggs then eventually you'll get an even bigger surprise. I spent a lot of the time trying to slow the detox down with less protein, more carbs, less zinc, less beef, less selenium (in the eggs now). Take your time to see if 1 or 2 or 3 eggs is enough before pushing on with more. Absorption is another inconvenient truth. With eggs this appears to improve and your supplements may be too strong.Ā
A lot of factors can go wrong. Stronger detox and eggs improve detox but has a little going back in the body with permeability that takes time to fix. A long time. Hence you dont want to hurry when you know leakiness or indeed poor bile flow is your problem. Fibre, moderate fat and taurine may all be needed eventually to fix leakiness.
My egg munching buddies have commented as well. I was giving you anecdotes of why eggs might not work.
Dude, thatās not what I meant! šĀ I canāt ban anyone from posting in this thread, nor do I wish to do so. Everyone is welcome, of course, including you.
This thread is for offering support to individuals who CANNOT (egg allergy, etc) or WILL NOT (personal preference) consume eggs, but would like to make sure theyāre getting choline in their diet. š
Your comment above comes across as a troubleshooting guide for increasing egg consumption, @andrew-b. Thatās kinda off-topic.
Do you believe everyone dealing with chronic hypervitaminosis A who isnāt eating eggs is undoubtedly deficient in choline?Ā
@christianĀ Thanks for āgetting it,ā man! Great list. šĀ Love the budget supplement ideas, too. I was buying sunflower lecithin from Azure Standard, and didnāt even know they carried it at Bulk Supplements.Ā
@chris-4 Totally agree!
@andrew-b @puddleduck I'm laughing at your banter. I keep my fingers crossed that this doesn't escalate. Though, puddleduck has a point, the guide how-to-make-eggs-work is not what she meant. Anyway, it's still helpful for all of those who want to run a successful eggsperiment.
@christianĀ Thanks for āgetting it,ā man! Great list. šĀ Love the budget supplement ideas, too. I was buying sunflower lecithin from Azure Standard, and didnāt even know they carried it at Bulk Supplements.Ā
Your welcome, lady! š I'm glad you've found the list helpful. š I didn't know Azure Standard. Their sunflower lecithin looks really good, probably much better than the one by Bulk Supplements which is almost certainly sourced in China. Though, the price is steep.