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Anthropology, appropriate diets, and Vitamin A questions
Hello!
I recently found this site, and I binged reading a ton of information available here. I really respect and admire the intellectual curiosity by both the author and individuals commenting in this forum. Over the past 10 years, I have naturally recovered my health from shambles. In order to heal and escape from the allopathic hell hole, I had to learn...a lot. I've spent thousands of hours reading books, studies, research articles, and especially enjoy learning about evolutionary biology. I've tried essentially every diet, supplement, lifestyle intervention, etc.
I've settled on a meat based nose-to-tail diet, egg yolks, fruit, and honey. That is essentially all I eat, and what I believe to be the most accurate interpretation of what our ancestors consumed pre Agricultural Revolution (and what the last remaining tribes eat like the Hazda). My UC and Celiac are completely in remission, and don't have any obvious health problems.
I consume beef liver 3-4 times a week which is very high in Vitamin A compounds. I have many carnivore friends that do the same thing. We have all had positive effects since starting the diet. The concept that this may be unhealthy for me is concerning for sure. I have a couple questions that I hope some of ya'll can answer. I ask these questions not to argue or debate, but merely to understand an opposing viewpoint, to learn, and perhaps if the argument is compelling enough, to change my diet. Ultimately, I think we all just want to follow the diet best for our bodies, and I love that even after 10 years I am still learning. So please help me learn!
- From an evolutionary biology perspective, humans are omnivores but preferentially consumed meat. Our ancestors typically used the entire animal carcass, and nothing was wasted. If animals organs are high in Vitamin A, and humans have been consuming them for millennia (before the advent of things like obesity, diabetes, metabolic abnormalities, etc.), how can we justify excluding organ meats from the diet? Especially for strict carnivores (like lions, or wild dogs) who consume very large amounts of Vitamin A daily? Why would it be toxic for us but not for them?
- I am very skeptical of synthetic vitamins. Especially ones that stored in the body for long periods of time. For example, I recently discovered the dangers of D3 (cholecalciferol) & its role in calcification. It is essentially a movement similar to this one with Vitamin A where the foundational science behind the specific molecule is being questioned. However, Vitamin D compounds exist naturally in animal foods, & cultures & people have consumed them for thousands of years. Vitamin D & Vitamin A are both a class of molecules. I see the hubris and faulty logic of ingesting an isolated synthetic compound in that class of molecules instead of through a food matrix. In a food matrix, you get it all in specific ratios that act on biology in unique ways. Is there a chance that only synthetic Vitamin A is toxic? Why or why not?
Any clarity someone could provide here would be much appreciated. It is scary to think Vitamin A and all molecules it encompasses are toxic.
Thanks in advance!
Hey, we are almost on the same diet. I eat muscle meat of wild animals, honey and low A fruit.
From my personal experience: Natural vitamin A is toxic as well. Maybe synthetic vitamin A is even more toxic, but I tested it and pretty clearly Retinol and beta-carotene even from natural food is toxic for my body. For example I tried eating grapes and got better, then I switched to mangos and got worse again. The reason for this is the sky high beta-carotene in mangos in my opinion.
Why did our ancestors eat organs? Because they needed to get as many calories as they could. Before you starve to death you would rather eat the organs, even though they are toxic.
There isnt only more vitamin A in organs (which is toxic in my opinion) but also heavy metals and other harmful compounds are MUCH higher in organs. The liver stores toxins and if you eat organs you will eat the toxins. Pretty simple. I guess you wont argue heavy metals are good for us even though we have been eating them for years.
Quote from Luke on August 23, 2021, 9:44 amHello!
I recently found this site, and I binged reading a ton of information available here. I really respect and admire the intellectual curiosity by both the author and individuals commenting in this forum. Over the past 10 years, I have naturally recovered my health from shambles. In order to heal and escape from the allopathic hell hole, I had to learn...a lot. I've spent thousands of hours reading books, studies, research articles, and especially enjoy learning about evolutionary biology. I've tried essentially every diet, supplement, lifestyle intervention, etc.
I've settled on a meat based nose-to-tail diet, egg yolks, fruit, and honey. That is essentially all I eat, and what I believe to be the most accurate interpretation of what our ancestors consumed pre Agricultural Revolution (and what the last remaining tribes eat like the Hazda). My UC and Celiac are completely in remission, and don't have any obvious health problems.
I consume beef liver 3-4 times a week which is very high in Vitamin A compounds. I have many carnivore friends that do the same thing. We have all had positive effects since starting the diet. The concept that this may be unhealthy for me is concerning for sure. I have a couple questions that I hope some of ya'll can answer. I ask these questions not to argue or debate, but merely to understand an opposing viewpoint, to learn, and perhaps if the argument is compelling enough, to change my diet. Ultimately, I think we all just want to follow the diet best for our bodies, and I love that even after 10 years I am still learning. So please help me learn!
- From an evolutionary biology perspective, humans are omnivores but preferentially consumed meat. Our ancestors typically used the entire animal carcass, and nothing was wasted. If animals organs are high in Vitamin A, and humans have been consuming them for millennia (before the advent of things like obesity, diabetes, metabolic abnormalities, etc.), how can we justify excluding organ meats from the diet? Especially for strict carnivores (like lions, or wild dogs) who consume very large amounts of Vitamin A daily? Why would it be toxic for us but not for them?
- I am very skeptical of synthetic vitamins. Especially ones that stored in the body for long periods of time. For example, I recently discovered the dangers of D3 (cholecalciferol) & its role in calcification. It is essentially a movement similar to this one with Vitamin A where the foundational science behind the specific molecule is being questioned. However, Vitamin D compounds exist naturally in animal foods, & cultures & people have consumed them for thousands of years. Vitamin D & Vitamin A are both a class of molecules. I see the hubris and faulty logic of ingesting an isolated synthetic compound in that class of molecules instead of through a food matrix. In a food matrix, you get it all in specific ratios that act on biology in unique ways. Is there a chance that only synthetic Vitamin A is toxic? Why or why not?
Any clarity someone could provide here would be much appreciated. It is scary to think Vitamin A and all molecules it encompasses are toxic.
Thanks in advance!
I never took supplements in my life, but my diet was high in carrots, milk and occasionally used to eat liver during my childhood .
I never had major health issues during my childhood , but I wasn't a healthy kid at all ( I attribute it to food low in protein ).
We supposedly used to eat all "healthy" back home . Milk , cheese , green salad ( carrots ) etc , fruits etc .... The childhood friends that were strongest were the ones who didn't eat all of these super healthy foods . And my mother would blame it on bad luck or evil eye. There was a saying back them "you don't absorb food".
If actually natural vitamin A was not toxic , I mostly became toxic after I started going to the gym to gain weight with all "healthy"
foods . I used to consume carrots , vegetables , milk , sweet potatoes ( Sweet potatoes did all the damage ) . Never actually did consume liver during my adult years .
This is what caused wreckage to my health . I think in my case toxicity was fast , because I didn't consume heavy amounts of read meat ( RBP and ZInC helps to mobilize retinol ) . It might be a delayed reaction in your case , as you are consuming lots of red meat , but sooner or later it will hit you .
Also , grant is a living example of the fact that we don't need vitamin A , even if Vitamin A is a Vitamin at all . Now if I have to choose between taking it or not , I would definitely go with the later .
Also organ meats are generally toxic , as organs filter toxins . Why would I eat it anyways ?
Some of the vitamins and minerals presents in liver , could be easily found in low vitamin fruits or white beans/black beans . So I don't see any point of eating liver anyways
Quote from Luke on August 23, 2021, 9:44 amHello!
I recently found this site, and I binged reading a ton of information available here. I really respect and admire the intellectual curiosity by both the author and individuals commenting in this forum. Over the past 10 years, I have naturally recovered my health from shambles. In order to heal and escape from the allopathic hell hole, I had to learn...a lot. I've spent thousands of hours reading books, studies, research articles, and especially enjoy learning about evolutionary biology. I've tried essentially every diet, supplement, lifestyle intervention, etc.
I've settled on a meat based nose-to-tail diet, egg yolks, fruit, and honey. That is essentially all I eat, and what I believe to be the most accurate interpretation of what our ancestors consumed pre Agricultural Revolution (and what the last remaining tribes eat like the Hazda). My UC and Celiac are completely in remission, and don't have any obvious health problems.
I consume beef liver 3-4 times a week which is very high in Vitamin A compounds. I have many carnivore friends that do the same thing. We have all had positive effects since starting the diet. The concept that this may be unhealthy for me is concerning for sure. I have a couple questions that I hope some of ya'll can answer. I ask these questions not to argue or debate, but merely to understand an opposing viewpoint, to learn, and perhaps if the argument is compelling enough, to change my diet. Ultimately, I think we all just want to follow the diet best for our bodies, and I love that even after 10 years I am still learning. So please help me learn!
- From an evolutionary biology perspective, humans are omnivores but preferentially consumed meat. Our ancestors typically used the entire animal carcass, and nothing was wasted. If animals organs are high in Vitamin A, and humans have been consuming them for millennia (before the advent of things like obesity, diabetes, metabolic abnormalities, etc.), how can we justify excluding organ meats from the diet? Especially for strict carnivores (like lions, or wild dogs) who consume very large amounts of Vitamin A daily? Why would it be toxic for us but not for them?
- I am very skeptical of synthetic vitamins. Especially ones that stored in the body for long periods of time. For example, I recently discovered the dangers of D3 (cholecalciferol) & its role in calcification. It is essentially a movement similar to this one with Vitamin A where the foundational science behind the specific molecule is being questioned. However, Vitamin D compounds exist naturally in animal foods, & cultures & people have consumed them for thousands of years. Vitamin D & Vitamin A are both a class of molecules. I see the hubris and faulty logic of ingesting an isolated synthetic compound in that class of molecules instead of through a food matrix. In a food matrix, you get it all in specific ratios that act on biology in unique ways. Is there a chance that only synthetic Vitamin A is toxic? Why or why not?
Any clarity someone could provide here would be much appreciated. It is scary to think Vitamin A and all molecules it encompasses are toxic.
Thanks in advance!
Replying to your questions .
- From an evolutionary biology perspective, humans are omnivores but preferentially consumed meat. Our ancestors typically used the entire animal carcass, and nothing was wasted. If animals organs are high in Vitamin A, and humans have been consuming them for millennia (before the advent of things like obesity, diabetes, metabolic abnormalities, etc.), how can we justify excluding organ meats from the diet? Especially for strict carnivores (like lions, or wild dogs) who consume very large amounts of Vitamin A daily? Why would it be toxic for us but not for them?
Answer:
This is the biggest bais we modern humans have , the natures fallacy . Equating the existence of animals and humans is philosophically incorrect in itself . Lions and wild dogs were born perfect , provided with everything . Fur for cold , claws / speed for hunting and they have a static life . Human existence is essentially a hack .Humans were kept on this earth not to survive , but to figure out . We were born naked without an ability to fight cold , we had to find a hack around it . We were born without an ability to hunt , we had to find a hack around it . we were born with a brain , but without a manually how to use it .
Humans evolved because it was required , there was something wrong with our ancient ways . Going with a mindset that whatever our ancestors did was the best way to go about life is simply wrong . First of all we dont exactly know what and how our prehistoric ancestors ate . Liver yes , but we don't know how they died , did they feel fatigued all the time ? we simply dont know
BTW diabetics has been documented as early as ancient egypt 1550 BC.
Humans are here on this planet to figure out stuff, natures doesn't work for us , we don't have it all , we have to find it . - I am very skeptical of synthetic vitamins. Especially ones that stored in the body for long periods of time. For example, I recently discovered the dangers of D3 (cholecalciferol) & its role in calcification. It is essentially a movement similar to this one with Vitamin A where the foundational science behind the specific molecule is being questioned. However, Vitamin D compounds exist naturally in animal foods, & cultures & people have consumed them for thousands of years. Vitamin D & Vitamin A are both a class of molecules. I see the hubris and faulty logic of ingesting an isolated synthetic compound in that class of molecules instead of through a food matrix. In a food matrix, you get it all in specific ratios that act on biology in unique ways. Is there a chance that only synthetic Vitamin A is toxic? Why or why not?
- I think I answered this question in my previous post
I was on a nose-to-tail carnivore diet, including organ meats, and I ended up here. One thing to keep in mind is that muscle meat from grass fed cows likely has tons of vitamin A in it as well, as the cows are eating green grass, which has beta carotene. Animals in the wild might not consume green grass 365 days a year. So a typical carnivore eating grass fed meat is getting more vitamin A than they need even before they get into organ meats, dairy or whatever other high vitamin A animal or plant foods they are eating.
(There is another thread on grain-fed vs grass-fed beef and I won't get into references to academic work here).
Of course, I also consumed at various points over the last fifteen years cod liver oil and ate plant foods like carrots that are high in vitamin A.
Animal experiments and human case studies show that natural vitamin A can cause hypervitaminosis. Garrett Smith addresses this point at length in his two-part interview with Judy Cho of Nutrition with Judy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vS0eZK5LIkE&t=1119s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XR80Jgfhfg
Welcome to the discussion @luke
I don't find fault with most of your first statement. However, it is important to consider an individual's history before they adopted a modern version of the carnivore diet. It may be the case that people today can tolerate a nose-to-tail carnivore diet IF they started from a point of true health without pre-existing baggage...but hardly anybody starts from that baseline in the modern era of pollution and crap "food". I think the reason some people do well with lots of organ meats and others don't has to do with the amount and type of that pre-existing baggage and their nutritional status. For example, Paul Saladino appears (could just be lag time) to have escaped his raw vegan days without much of an impact to his liver, but maybe he worsened his immune response to plant compounds instead. I would imagine the safest route to organ consumption today would be to carefully try introducing them only after a long "weaning" period from plant foods, supplements, and medications, and after correcting any nutrient deficiencies, by being on a muscle meat carnivore (ish) diet.
Regarding your second set of statements, I agree that you should be very skeptical and careful with isolated, manufactured nutrients of any kind. They are much more likely to harm your body than when they are acquired from natural food sources. However, just because you can get them from natural food sources doesn't make them safe, it just means your body is more likely to tolerate them in that context. Some sources of liver contain much lower amounts of Vitamin A than others, and you may be just fine eating the livers of smaller herbivores on a regular basis, whereas the livers of predators or very long-lived herbivores may contain a dangerous level of Vitamin A (the classic polar explorer cases of toxicity point to this).
Humans are almost completely reliant on culture (and more recently, recorded history) to survive. We depend on those that came before us to share the accumulated knowledge necessary to survive in our local environments. This is part of the reason everyone is going to shambles these days...the rapid intermixing of people around the world into foreign modern environments, the availability of completely foreign foods (both natural and GMO) in the supermarket, the increasing reliance on technological food systems...this is all resulting in the loss of long-held cultural knowledge and encouraging rapid experimentation with food combinations and preparation techniques (or lack of preparation) that may prove to be harmful in ways we don't yet understand.
Humans are the most adaptive species on the planet, but we still need a lot of time to successfully adapt to a changing environment. We are changing our environment too quickly today, without gaining the compensatory knowledge fast enough to ensure our long-term survival. Trying to mirror ancestral ways that were successful is probably our best bet, but we still need to be careful to understand how those ancestral ways interact with a history of health baggage most of us have today, which our ancestors did not have.
In summary, the dose makes the poison, and a compromised body requires a lower dose to become poisoned.
Hi Luke, You are right there is no vitamin-A free diet on earth and why would we try to avoid something so natural?
I feel like we are meant to last in our environment (with vitamin A in it) for the usual lifetime. Many of the problems of VA toxicity are exactly like old age. By late middle age, in many cultures, people get thick around the middle, they get rheumatism, they don't sleep well, they don't digest well. But for some reason some of us (here) are finding we are hitting the wall way too early.
I think that probably this is true also of animals in human captivity nowadays as well (such as obese apes in zoos) and even those in close proximity to humans (like deer with crooked teeth who live in parks).
I've pointed out that every single farm animal these days is on (synthetic?) vitamin A supplements! You can go read a feed bag in your town agricultural store to see what I mean. Many of our products (like milk) also contain vitamin A supplements. We are told to eat colorful veggies at every meal, and that wouldn't really be the way of the northern world in the olden days. They would have been eating storage foods (like grains and potatoes) and meats for 9 months out of the year here where I live.
I also think that other nutritional deficiencies (like b vitamins) might make people chronically high-VA because they aren't detoxing well. I can see how the high b-vitamin level of liver MIGHT be preventative of some of the damage of liver. This might also be true of milk. (especially animal foods in which the animals aren't being dosed with vitamin A). Some of us might have started off life with a deficiency due to infant formula or maybe we inherited our mother's deficiencies!
I think that once you are high-VA you are in deep doo-doo and I'm not sure you can get well again without scaling back. And it could be that real, long term (there is always hope though) damage has been done.
It's a lot easier to stay well, than it is to get well. So you are smart to think on these things even if you are well.
With my loved ones who aren't sick, I try to tell them to simply stay *under* the Recommend Daily Allowance for vitamin A. *To actually do the math*. For example, if you are going to eat liver on a certain day, don't also have egg yolks. And figure out the portion size for you that keeps you under the limit.
I've also droned on too much about my grandfather and my grandmother who lived very long lives (93 abnd 99) and didn't have to adopt anything out-of-the-ordinary way-of-eating to do so. Both ate old-fashioned quite-normal diets. Perhaps they came from a time in which vitamin A supplements were not given so freely to animals and inserted into our diet. They also lived in the time before "eat the rainbow". They lived on a very carb/meat diet, and the colorful things were just condiments.
- We don't know what people ate and what parts they ate. I'm sure there were different traditions in different tribes. According to Vilhjalmur Stefanson, who spent many years living with Inuit tribes, they mostly left the organs for the dogs, and they mostly just ate organ meats in emergencies. Apparently they ate some forms of liver like fish liver for taste, but not because they thought they needed it, it was just a taste thing, and they never ate things such as caribou or beer liver. Carnivorous animals generally have a higher capacity to store vitamin A. That's why eating a polar bear liver could kill you, that bear has been eating vitamin A foods for its whole life and all that vitamin A has been stored in the liver, its reserves of vitamin A getting higher with each year, never getting depleted.
- That's a naturalistic fallacy. Nature is not inherently benovlent. There is no such thing as a perfect food, all foods have something negative with them, and some are much worse than others. I don't think vitamin D is poison. Animals endogenously produce vitamin D when exposed to UV rays from the sun. Plants endogenously produce vitamin A when exposed to the sun.
That being said I'm not fully 100% convinced that vitamin A is a pure poison yet (although the majority of evidence points in that direction), it could also be that some people for whatever reason have trouble handling and metabolizing it, or maybe it could be a problem because we just get much more of it now than we used to in the past. One thing you could do is cut out all organs of your diet for 2 weeks or so, and then reintroduce liver and see how you feel. My prediction is that initially you will feel good after eating the liver, but in the days after you will feel worse.
"beer liver" They usually take it out before it's bottled.