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ATRA Antagonizes the Action of Calciferol in Rats
I know this is old news but I found these parts interesting. If one is already low in D could some of the detox symptoms be due to inhibition of D as the VA is released? Symptoms like catching colds easily and fatigue. High VA -> Inhibited D -> Low magnesium and calcium?
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/135/7/1647/4663843
Early experiments using nonpurified diets indicated that retinol, in the form of carotene, from green roughage inhibits the ability of calciferol to cure rickets, a bone mineralization disorder (1–5).
Although an antagonistic relation between retinol and calciferol has been firmly established, the exact nature of this interaction has yet to be determined. Several studies indicated that retinol may affect the metabolism of calciferol (13,14). Retinol may either decrease the production of the active form of calciferol, 1,25(OH)2D3, or it may increase the destruction of this compound. Another possible mechanism of interaction is that retinol may affect the production of the vitamin D receptor (VDR) (15,16). However, this effect is not clearly established and may depend on species and cell type. A third possible mechanism is suggested by the fact that both all-trans retinoic acid (ATRA) and 1,25(OH)2D3, the active forms of retinol and calciferol, require the retinoid X receptor (RXR) to carry out their effects on gene transcription (17–19).
Using this model, we have now shown that high but not toxic amounts of retinol, in the form of retinyl acetate, inhibit the ability of both ergocalciferol and cholecalciferol to maintain serum calcium concentrations of rats fed a normal calcium and phosphorus diet (Expt. 1).
Not only retinyl acetate, but also ATRA, an active metabolite of retinol, inhibited the ability of both ergocalciferol and cholecalciferol to maintain serum calcium concentrations in rats fed a normal calcium and phosphorus diet (Expt. 2).
If I take vitamin D, I feel soo good ... for a few hours, mentally, better mood, physically - higher body temperature, I breathe better, my brain works better ... But I had to stop it completely because then I have strong VA dumping symptoms again and then I feel worse - It's a totally vicious circle with all these nutrients balancing until the VA is out!
I think people who need more than a year for their detox and are more toxic, have more serious health problems are getting into these troubles...They need to support the body to continue with the detox but then the body starts VA dumping and they feel worse and without support their detox slows down...and they don't feel progress. We should feel VA dumping symptoms - because that means the body has enough energy to detox. "The slowly route" without any supplements only with the diet work only for people who aren't that toxic. In the first months the body has enough nutrients and enough energy to detox and then after a few months things start to get complicated for some people if they don't support their body enough.
https://www.mayoclinicproceedings.org/article/S0025-6196%2815%2900244-X/pdf
Vitamin D Is Not as Toxic as Was Once Thought: A Historical and an Up-to-Date Perspective
@bludicka How much D would you normally take to experience what you said above?
10 000 IU, I know that vitamin D is not the answer for VA toxicity... maybe partially for people who are really deficient in vitamin D - symptoms as muscle weakness, bone and back pains, low immune system, depressions... but for me it's proof how antagonistic and destructive VA toxicity can work on certain nutrients. I was saturating with vitamin D until the worst symptoms of the deficiency were gone - about two weeks, and then I took vitamin D sporadically.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tglP1YJdMc
Does Less Sun Mean More Disease? By VitaminD Wiki and AmpleEarth.com
I've been thinking about the calcium part of this problem. Do you remember how that small child who showed up at the hospital VA toxic... the docs were most worried about his high calcium.
I think we do know that when you are VA-toxic calcium gets put places it shouldn't be, and taken away from where it should be (causing crusties here and spongy bone there). For instance, one of the ways you can know your cat is VA toxic is because they will develop hard lumps along their spine.
" Your veterinarian will also take X-rays of neck regions to visualize the vertebrae present in neck area (cervical vertebrae) as well as other areas; new bone formation is often an indicator of vitamin A toxicity."
This is also probably why we get so much dental calculus, causing our gums to bleed. The calculus inflames the gums! I'm betting this is why older women get weak bones: their calcium is out of place.
I suppose that VD (haha) (not veneral disease, vit D) helps with putting the calcium where it belongs. Of course, VD is also a fat soluble vitie, so could possibly build up! and as such must be treated with caution? I'm a little scared of these fat vities now, LOL. Perhaps getting it through a sun lamp or the sun itself is best because the body has ways of limiting that route.
It is interesting that the docs wanted the child to drink more WATER to get rid of the calcium. That wouldn't be my first impression of how to get rid of calcium, and yet I'm known for not drinking enough so perhaps that is another reason I've ended up with so many issues.
Now, perhaps you know from reading my log but I get Raynauds Phenomenon. Raynauds appears on this list of auto-immune issues that are lumped together into a category known as scleroderma. Could Scleroderma simply be calcium deposited in wrong places due to VA? I feel that I've got calcinosis in a few of my joints, I have sclerodactyly in my pinkies, raynauds on toes, and talangiectasia on my nose. I think that's bingo.
"Limited scleroderma is sometimes called CREST syndrome. CREST stands for the initial letters of five common features:
- Calcinosis
- Raynaud Phenomenon
- Esophageal dysfunction
- Sclerodactyly
- Telangiectasia
To further complicate the terminology, some people with diffuse disease will go on to develop calcinosis and telangiectasias so that they also have the features of CREST.
Although most patients can be classified as having diffuse or limited disease, different people may have different symptoms and different combination of symptoms of the illness."
Hubs would tell you that he believes that I do get low in VD and he can tell when I do... (personality-wise)
Of course, no one vitamin or mineral works alone to make bone.
I have said to my holistic dentist "I feel that I've been in constant tear-down mode". She gave me an interested and yet quizzical face.
I don't think my intuition was wrong. BUT I wonder if too much build-up-mode can also be bad. Balance...
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My understanding is that VD (haha) causes calcium to be absorbed from food but it is vitamin K2 that puts it into the correct places. As you say it’s all about the correct balance.
https://americanbonehealth.org/nutrition/vitamins-for-bone-health/
In this article "Here are the four vitamins that, in addition to vitamin D, are important to bone heath."
So I guess they are warning people now, about vit A.
Then they name B12, C, and K
here is what they say about VA...
"Vitamin A is a fat-soluble vitamin that is important to building strong, healthy bones. Both osteoblasts (bone building cells) and osteoclasts (bone breaking down cells) are influenced by vitamin A. Despite its good effects, most clinical research links higher vitamin A levels with lower bone density and fractures.
One source of vitamin A is retinol, found in meat and fish, fortified breakfast cereals, and vitamin supplements. Vitamin A is fat-soluble and stored in our livers. So the liver of fish and animals are particularly rich in vitamin A.
Another source of vitamin A is beta-carotene, found in dark green and orange fruits and vegetables. Beta-carotene is generally considered safe. According to the National Institutes of Health, the RDA for men age 19+ is 3,000 International Units (IUs) and 2,330 IUs for women in the same age range.
Too much vitamin A (more than 3,000 mcg or 10,000 IU/day) will give you a headache and has been linked to bone loss. Pay particular attention to this possibility if you eat liver or take supplements."