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Butter and Ghee
A couple months after I got seborrheic dermatitis, I found out one of my triggers was dairy. Naturally I just assumed it was because of lactose.
So then I tried (cooked) butter, and still had my sebderm flare up. I looked it up online and people were saying it was casein. So then I tried (cooked) ghee, still got it. Finally, I tried (cooked) tallow and I didn’t get a flare up.
Does this prove that my sebderm was being flared up by vitamin A/retinol/retinoic acid?
Hi Tommy. It could very well be that your sebderm is caused by A in the butter. Unless it is the added fat triggering bile dump. What is your experience with other fat sources?
EDIT: sorry, I missed the tallow in your comment 🤦♀️
That is what it was like for me when I starhed this journey, super sensitive to dairy and A foods in general. I got itchy red eczema spots from it the last 6 months or so before going low A. I also did a milk allergy test that came out negative, just to be sure. I stayed away from all dairy for several years.
I can eat dairy now without any of the symtoms I used to get. However. Being aware of its high A content I try not to overdo higher fat dairy. And I personally stay away from all enriched dairy.
I forgot to mention, I also get a seb derm flare up from cooked lard. Does this solidify the fact that I might be sensitive to RA? What does milk, butter, ghee and lard have in common?
What does milk, butter, ghee and lard have in common?
Vitamin A (lard has "lard factor" identified as RA). Probably also some fatty acids.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/13186866/
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article-abstract/51/3/393/4727493?redirectedFrom=fulltext&login=false
But he didn't react to tallow, which also presumably contained some amount of Vitamin A, and quite likely no less than what is in lard.
If he hadn't reacted to lard, I would've suggested it was carotene, but there shouldn't be much of any carotene in lard, and I would expect much more carotene to be found in tallow than lard.
Good point. No way to know anything for sure without testning. I have seen studies finding small ammounts of RA in tallow, way less than in lard. I think one of the old studies above found levels about the same as in lard, higher than previously discovered. Which doesn't mean anything really as different farmers give their animals different feed and supplements. The tallow eaten could very well have low enough RA content not to trigger a reaction. I have personally seen more often RA is higher in lard than in tallow. The question I replied to, however, was, what does milk, lard, butter and ghee have in common. Not milk, lard, butter, ghee and tallow.
"The question I replied to, however, was, what does milk, lard, butter and ghee have in common. Not milk, lard, butter, ghee and tallow."
Hehe, ok, but I think what was implied in his question was, what is common to these things but not tallow (which he didn't react to) because they're all fats.
Where did you see indications of more Vitamin A in lard than tallow? Also, I don't think there should be much or any retinoic acid in these fats, it should be retinyl esters.
Sorry, I can be a bit square/literal 😅
One example: In one of the studies I read this morning in the result part or conclusion the authors mentioned they had found higher levels of RA in tallow than previously discovered in another paper. However it could be I forgot to link to that one 🤔 It was an easy find though, I searched for lard factor and retinoic acid and science direct came up with a few results. Old studies though, a bit of a hustle to scan through. I think written not too long after the discovery of RA.
But I have read a LOT of studies over the years 😅. I don't save them or bookmark them, although every time I run into something interesting I always tell myself I probably should. I have drawn the conclusion, retinol in one form or another are present in cows as well as pigs. Levels seem to vary which make sense due to different feeds and supplements. So I guess again it comes down to personal tolerance. It would be cool though to be able to test. I would love to have my own lab 😍
Retinyl esters is another factor, good point. I have not looked into that one specifically for this case though. Have you found anything on that? But there will probably be different results just as with RA 🤷♀️
Edit: found it. It was vitamin A mentioned in this study, not RA. My appologies. Where there is A, RA is probably lurking 🤷♀️
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1216195/?page=3
@tommy I think the answer to the question of why you don't react to tallow may be quite simple. What you react to is a toxin. Cows, like any animal, try to get rid of toxins any way they can. Excretion in milk is a good opportunity, hence your reaction to butter and ghee, and if it was a milk cow that the tallow came from then there would be less toxin in its fat because of that. On top of it, cows are mostly outside and move a lot more than pigs who are usually kept in a stable without sunlight and can't move around very much. The pigs that are eaten also haven't usually given milk. All this leads more to storage of toxins in fat than excretion.
On a side-note, I've also given up eating butter and nowadays eat only fatty ground beef and drink water. Works beautifully thus far.