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Can Choline accelerate Vit A Detoxification?
@jessica2
It was silent until it wasn't...just like oxalates, metals, cancer...the proverbial frog in a pot of warming water that doesn't realize it needs to jump out until it's too late and it's cooked.
@jessica2
It was silent until it wasn't...just like oxalates, metals, cancer...the proverbial frog in a pot of warming water that doesn't realize it needs to jump out until it's too late and it's cooked.
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@jessica2
I already explained the scientific rationale for testing Phosphatidylcholine alone before trying lecithin and/or eggs. If you want to eschew the scientific method for your holistic intuitive approach, go for it. I was winning 100 mile ski races when I first started upping my Vitamin A and oxalate intake...it took years before I collapsed from that stuff. s n e a k y s i l e n t d e a t h
@jessica2
I already explained the scientific rationale for testing Phosphatidylcholine alone before trying lecithin and/or eggs. If you want to eschew the scientific method for your holistic intuitive approach, go for it. I was winning 100 mile ski races when I first started upping my Vitamin A and oxalate intake...it took years before I collapsed from that stuff. s n e a k y s i l e n t d e a t h
I was just reading an article that was not about choline that mentioned in passing that histamine and choline are autonomic nerve toxins. They didn't have a citation for that statement...I wonder what made them consider choline a nerve toxin?
I was just reading an article that was not about choline that mentioned in passing that histamine and choline are autonomic nerve toxins. They didn't have a citation for that statement...I wonder what made them consider choline a nerve toxin?
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Quote from
Luisa on November 17, 2022, 8:17 pm
@wavygravygadzooks from what I understand too much choline might increase acetylcholine, which is a neurotransmitter and heavily involved in the autonomic nerve system. Too much acetylcholine is not good.
Choline supplements are used as nootropics to increase focus, but too much of a good thing is not good either. I think I read also that too much acetylcholine can cause histamine release and vice versa. If you take choline watch out for symptoms of too much acetylcholine, diarrhea and headaches could be one of those symptoms. I think since you eat carnivore I highlight doubt you would benefit from it, you are very likely getting enough of it. From what I read only problem that could prevent you from getting enough choline from your diet could be that it can be converted to TMAO in the gut, this depends on the microbiome though.
@wavygravygadzooks from what I understand too much choline might increase acetylcholine, which is a neurotransmitter and heavily involved in the autonomic nerve system. Too much acetylcholine is not good.
Choline supplements are used as nootropics to increase focus, but too much of a good thing is not good either. I think I read also that too much acetylcholine can cause histamine release and vice versa. If you take choline watch out for symptoms of too much acetylcholine, diarrhea and headaches could be one of those symptoms. I think since you eat carnivore I highlight doubt you would benefit from it, you are very likely getting enough of it. From what I read only problem that could prevent you from getting enough choline from your diet could be that it can be converted to TMAO in the gut, this depends on the microbiome though.
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NavnHermesCeliaDeleted userAndrew B
Quote from
Andrew B on November 22, 2022, 1:43 pm
The plasma retinol levels in MCD rats (methionine-choline deficient) were lower than those in the controls, whereas hepatic retinol levels in MCD rats were higher. Expression of LRAT, CRBP-I, ALDH1A1, and ALDH1A2 in the liver of MCD rats was also higher. Seems like choline helps retinol detox rather than hinders it. Another member of the forum shared this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24975216/
@ggenereux2014
The plasma retinol levels in MCD rats (methionine-choline deficient) were lower than those in the controls, whereas hepatic retinol levels in MCD rats were higher. Expression of LRAT, CRBP-I, ALDH1A1, and ALDH1A2 in the liver of MCD rats was also higher. Seems like choline helps retinol detox rather than hinders it. Another member of the forum shared this: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24975216/
@ggenereux2014
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Quote from
Andrew B on December 24, 2022, 7:29 am
I'm looking for the levels of choline in organ meats and came across beef kidney with apparently no vitamin A in beef kidney (edit - see article couple of posts below at 1,397 IUs) and 513 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tongue (edit - per USDA beef tongue) is also high at 154 mgs of choline.
Interestingly, bison is higher at 97.2 mgs per 100 grams than ground beef (lean) at 83.1 mgs per 100 grams. Perhaps slight advantage to eating bison although different cuts of meat do vary. @ggenereux2014
Top 25 foods for choline. https://www.nutritionadvance.com/foods-high-in-choline/
I'm looking for the levels of choline in organ meats and came across beef kidney with apparently no vitamin A in beef kidney (edit - see article couple of posts below at 1,397 IUs) and 513 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tongue (edit - per USDA beef tongue) is also high at 154 mgs of choline.
Interestingly, bison is higher at 97.2 mgs per 100 grams than ground beef (lean) at 83.1 mgs per 100 grams. Perhaps slight advantage to eating bison although different cuts of meat do vary. @ggenereux2014
Top 25 foods for choline. https://www.nutritionadvance.com/foods-high-in-choline/
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@andrew-b
Kidney should contain Vitamin A. Look around for other data sources. Lamb kidney in Cronometer has Vitamin A, but for some reason beef kidney in Cronometer shows zero...pretty sure that's wrong based on the significant amounts that show up in some data tables.
@andrew-b
Kidney should contain Vitamin A. Look around for other data sources. Lamb kidney in Cronometer has Vitamin A, but for some reason beef kidney in Cronometer shows zero...pretty sure that's wrong based on the significant amounts that show up in some data tables.
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Quote from
Andrew B on December 24, 2022, 1:16 pm
@wavygravygadzooks Thanks. I've found an article with roughly the level I'd seen it at before for kidney 1,397 IUs of vit A.
It looks like genuine tongue and not luncheon meat tongue is higher at 357 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tripe is 203 mgs of choline.
https://www.doctorkiltz.com/organ-meats/
@wavygravygadzooks Thanks. I've found an article with roughly the level I'd seen it at before for kidney 1,397 IUs of vit A.
It looks like genuine tongue and not luncheon meat tongue is higher at 357 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tripe is 203 mgs of choline.
https://www.doctorkiltz.com/organ-meats/
Quote from
Andrew B on December 27, 2022, 3:24 am
The choline always wins ! Well, nearly. Organ meats tend to be higher in fat with a little Vitamin A yet the choline is so high it keeps your liver winning the battle. Even beef kidneys at 513 mgs of choline per 100 grams with 1,397 IUs of vitamin A are still one of the best foods for choline almost on a par with eggs, fish roe and beef hearts. Steak and kidney pie, anyone ? Tongue I'm getting different figures for choline between 154 and 357 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tripe is 203 mgs per 100 grams. Okay, good for your dog.
Choline can reverse fatty liver even in the face of a high fat diet. And even in the face of moderate Vitamin A. What might the exception be ? Beef liver at about 30,000 IUs of Vit A and choline of 426 mgs per 100 grams about 22 times the Vitamin A of beef kidneys and less choline. There may be people capable of eating liver every day but in the long run I suspect the vitamin A will build up causing liver and other problems. My guess is we can detox 15,000 IUs of Vitamin A per day when healthy and choline replete. You could be eating a few eggs and beef kidneys each day for more choline and doing okay. Always interested in corrections to the numbers but I think eating beef liver too often will end badly.
The choline always wins ! Well, nearly. Organ meats tend to be higher in fat with a little Vitamin A yet the choline is so high it keeps your liver winning the battle. Even beef kidneys at 513 mgs of choline per 100 grams with 1,397 IUs of vitamin A are still one of the best foods for choline almost on a par with eggs, fish roe and beef hearts. Steak and kidney pie, anyone ? Tongue I'm getting different figures for choline between 154 and 357 mgs of choline per 100 grams. Tripe is 203 mgs per 100 grams. Okay, good for your dog.
Choline can reverse fatty liver even in the face of a high fat diet. And even in the face of moderate Vitamin A. What might the exception be ? Beef liver at about 30,000 IUs of Vit A and choline of 426 mgs per 100 grams about 22 times the Vitamin A of beef kidneys and less choline. There may be people capable of eating liver every day but in the long run I suspect the vitamin A will build up causing liver and other problems. My guess is we can detox 15,000 IUs of Vitamin A per day when healthy and choline replete. You could be eating a few eggs and beef kidneys each day for more choline and doing okay. Always interested in corrections to the numbers but I think eating beef liver too often will end badly.
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JennyNavnHermesDeleted user
Quote from
Andrew B on January 7, 2023, 5:06 am
Choline is increasing bile flow possibly best with lecithin (in eggs). If you believe cholesterol is part of the detox mechanism then choline with lecithin is helping the detox !
"We conclude that choline contributes to the beneficial effect of a lecithin diet on bile secretion. It is postulated that this effect may be attributed to modulation of HDL and an enhancement of the cholesterol and phospholipid pools destined for biliary secretion." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0005276098000721?via%3Dihub
Choline is increasing bile flow possibly best with lecithin (in eggs). If you believe cholesterol is part of the detox mechanism then choline with lecithin is helping the detox !
"We conclude that choline contributes to the beneficial effect of a lecithin diet on bile secretion. It is postulated that this effect may be attributed to modulation of HDL and an enhancement of the cholesterol and phospholipid pools destined for biliary secretion." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0005276098000721?via%3Dihub
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