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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itConsumption of organic meat does …

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Consumption of organic meat does not diminish the carcinogenic potential associated with the intake of persistent organic pollutants (POPs) [Study from 2015]

#11 · February 2, 2024, 2:48 am

Quote from David on February 2, 2024, 2:48 am
@janelle525

The 2008 study you linked:
PCB-containing wood floor finish is a likely source of elevated PCBs in residents' blood, household air and dust: a case study of exposure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267460/

There are still direct exposures from old PCB [PolyChlorinated Bisphenyls] containing products, and it seems like sanding dust from old PCB floor finishes is something to really watch out for. Breathing in toxins or swallowing toxins is extra hurtful since the contact surface of both the lungs and the intestines are enormous, enhancing absorbtion and, in the case of toxins, their damage.

A excerpt from the study's discussion hypothesising about PCB flooring being the main culprit in these two homes that where identified to contain large amounts of PCB dust:
"Serum and dust concentrations were especially high in residents of home 1, where a PCB-containing floor finish was reportedly used in the past, and where the floor of one room was sanded and refinished within a week prior to the sample collection. No other likely sources of PCBs were identified in either home by inspection, and wood floors in home 2 had not been refinished in many years. Based on these observations, we hypothesize that the source of PCBs in these two homes, and in the residents of those homes, is PCB-containing wood floor finish such as the Fabulon product reported to have been used in home #1. In addition to the listing of Fabulon in Gleason et al. [34] as containing chlorinated biphenyls, other sources indicate that PCBs were used in varnishes and paints in the 1950s and 1960s [36,37]. We have not confirmed that the wood floors are a source of PCBs in these homes. Such a confirmation could create regulatory and disclosure obligations that pose significant challenges to individual home owners. We are working to develop helpful and appropriate follow up in this context."

A 2022 review paper on PCB exposures:
A Review of Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs) Pollution in the Air: Where and How Much Are We Exposed to?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9657815/

An excerpt about dust digestion but the study also had some technical tables summarizing PCBs in many different settings, though with quite a bit variation of measurment technics, hindering some direct comparisons:
"4.2.2. Dust Ingestion: In addition to direct human exposure to PCBs through inhalation, airborne PCBs can contaminate indoor dust, which potentially impacts human health via unintentional ingestion. For example, a study conducted among 26 sample pairings in the United States found that PCBs in vacuum-cleaner dust were positively correlated with the levels of PCBs in human serum [91]. Furthermore, Frederiksen, Andersen [74] reported that residents of buildings constructed with PCB-containing materials that had significant dust PCB levels had high serum PCB levels.

While industrial emissions contribute as the major source of PCBs in urban areas, substantial dust pollution in rural houses poses significant exposure to this pollutant [81]. Approximately a quarter of non-dietary PCB exposure occurs through unintentional dust ingestion, especially among vulnerable groups [92]. In children, an increased risk of childhood leukemia has been linked to higher PCB levels in household dust [93]. At the same time, exposure to PCBs among older adults may contribute to a diminished cognitive ability [94]."

@janelle525

The 2008 study you linked:
PCB-containing wood floor finish is a likely source of elevated PCBs in residents' blood, household air and dust: a case study of exposure
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267460/

There are still direct exposures from old PCB [PolyChlorinated Bisphenyls] containing products, and it seems like sanding dust from old PCB floor finishes is something to really watch out for. Breathing in toxins or swallowing toxins is extra hurtful since the contact surface of both the lungs and the intestines are enormous, enhancing absorbtion and, in the case of toxins, their damage.

A excerpt from the study's discussion hypothesising about PCB flooring being the main culprit in these two homes that where identified to contain large amounts of PCB dust:
"Serum and dust concentrations were especially high in residents of home 1, where a PCB-containing floor finish was reportedly used in the past, and where the floor of one room was sanded and refinished within a week prior to the sample collection. No other likely sources of PCBs were identified in either home by inspection, and wood floors in home 2 had not been refinished in many years. Based on these observations, we hypothesize that the source of PCBs in these two homes, and in the residents of those homes, is PCB-containing wood floor finish such as the Fabulon product reported to have been used in home #1. In addition to the listing of Fabulon in Gleason et al. [34] as containing chlorinated biphenyls, other sources indicate that PCBs were used in varnishes and paints in the 1950s and 1960s [36,37]. We have not confirmed that the wood floors are a source of PCBs in these homes. Such a confirmation could create regulatory and disclosure obligations that pose significant challenges to individual home owners. We are working to develop helpful and appropriate follow up in this context."

A 2022 review paper on PCB exposures:
A Review of Polychlorinated Biphenyls (PCBs) Pollution in the Air: Where and How Much Are We Exposed to?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9657815/

An excerpt about dust digestion but the study also had some technical tables summarizing PCBs in many different settings, though with quite a bit variation of measurment technics, hindering some direct comparisons:
"4.2.2. Dust Ingestion: In addition to direct human exposure to PCBs through inhalation, airborne PCBs can contaminate indoor dust, which potentially impacts human health via unintentional ingestion. For example, a study conducted among 26 sample pairings in the United States found that PCBs in vacuum-cleaner dust were positively correlated with the levels of PCBs in human serum [91]. Furthermore, Frederiksen, Andersen [74] reported that residents of buildings constructed with PCB-containing materials that had significant dust PCB levels had high serum PCB levels.

While industrial emissions contribute as the major source of PCBs in urban areas, substantial dust pollution in rural houses poses significant exposure to this pollutant [81]. Approximately a quarter of non-dietary PCB exposure occurs through unintentional dust ingestion, especially among vulnerable groups [92]. In children, an increased risk of childhood leukemia has been linked to higher PCB levels in household dust [93]. At the same time, exposure to PCBs among older adults may contribute to a diminished cognitive ability [94]."

#12 · February 25, 2024, 6:39 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on January 25, 2024, 12:39 pm

This study says indoor air and dust could be a main exposure route for PCBs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267460/

I guess this would only apply to older homes?

Not necessarily, as I would imagine there are many more toxic coatings and building materials in modern homes than in homes built say 50 or more years ago: plastics, anti-fungals, spray insulation, formaldehyde, laminates, etc. Older homes could have more accumulation of dust and molds, but the basic materials themselves were not toxic.

Hermes has reacted to this post.

#13 · February 26, 2024, 7:03 am

Quote from Janelle525 on February 26, 2024, 7:03 am

Quote from HeyJude on February 25, 2024, 6:39 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on January 25, 2024, 12:39 pm

This study says indoor air and dust could be a main exposure route for PCBs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267460/

I guess this would only apply to older homes?

Not necessarily, as I would imagine there are many more toxic coatings and building materials in modern homes than in homes built say 50 or more years ago: plastics, anti-fungals, spray insulation, formaldehyde, laminates, etc. Older homes could have more accumulation of dust and molds, but the basic materials themselves were not toxic.

We are talking about PCB's which are now banned.

"studies of Great Lakes fish eaters have shown that fish consumption is a significant predictor of blood PCB concentrations [16,17]. Use of PCB-contaminated caulk in commercial buildings and schools, which appears to be common in pre-1980 construction [18,19], has been shown to increase blood PCB concentrations, especially for lower-chlorinated congeners."

" to identify potential sources of PCBs, one resident in home #1 recalled having used a floor finish called Fabulon on hardwood floors throughout the 1950s and 1960s. We consulted an out-of-print set of reference books designed for poison control centers and medical professionals, Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, which reported that in 1957 Fabulon's formula contained chlorinated biphenyl, hexachlor bi-phenyl, and quadraclor bi-phenyl."

" Because sanding of wood floors liberates a large amount of dust, the sanding of a Fabulon-coated wood floor may account for the unusually high concentrations we measured in dust (more than 8 times higher than first dust sample) and blood observed in the female resident of home #1."

"In addition to the listing of Fabulon in Gleason et al. [34] as containing chlorinated biphenyls, other sources indicate that PCBs were used in varnishes and paints in the 1950s and 1960s [36,37]. We have not confirmed that the wood floors are a source of PCBs in these homes. Such a confirmation could create regulatory and disclosure obligations that pose significant challenges to individual home owners. We are working to develop helpful and appropriate follow up in this context."

So... they can't even disclose this information because it would pose challenges to home owners! WHAT! we need to know just like we need to know whether our house is full of lead paint.

Quote from HeyJude on February 25, 2024, 6:39 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on January 25, 2024, 12:39 pm

This study says indoor air and dust could be a main exposure route for PCBs: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2267460/

I guess this would only apply to older homes?

Not necessarily, as I would imagine there are many more toxic coatings and building materials in modern homes than in homes built say 50 or more years ago: plastics, anti-fungals, spray insulation, formaldehyde, laminates, etc. Older homes could have more accumulation of dust and molds, but the basic materials themselves were not toxic.

We are talking about PCB's which are now banned.

"studies of Great Lakes fish eaters have shown that fish consumption is a significant predictor of blood PCB concentrations [16,17]. Use of PCB-contaminated caulk in commercial buildings and schools, which appears to be common in pre-1980 construction [18,19], has been shown to increase blood PCB concentrations, especially for lower-chlorinated congeners."

" to identify potential sources of PCBs, one resident in home #1 recalled having used a floor finish called Fabulon on hardwood floors throughout the 1950s and 1960s. We consulted an out-of-print set of reference books designed for poison control centers and medical professionals, Clinical Toxicology of Commercial Products, which reported that in 1957 Fabulon's formula contained chlorinated biphenyl, hexachlor bi-phenyl, and quadraclor bi-phenyl."

" Because sanding of wood floors liberates a large amount of dust, the sanding of a Fabulon-coated wood floor may account for the unusually high concentrations we measured in dust (more than 8 times higher than first dust sample) and blood observed in the female resident of home #1."

"In addition to the listing of Fabulon in Gleason et al. [34] as containing chlorinated biphenyls, other sources indicate that PCBs were used in varnishes and paints in the 1950s and 1960s [36,37]. We have not confirmed that the wood floors are a source of PCBs in these homes. Such a confirmation could create regulatory and disclosure obligations that pose significant challenges to individual home owners. We are working to develop helpful and appropriate follow up in this context."

So... they can't even disclose this information because it would pose challenges to home owners! WHAT! we need to know just like we need to know whether our house is full of lead paint.

Eio and Hermes have reacted to this post.

#14 · February 26, 2024, 7:12 am

Toxic home furnishings isn't really a new thing. I was just watching a video the other day about how anything green (such as fabric, wallpaper, paint) in the victorian era was possibly toxic enough that if you have an old green victorian book you probably want to handle it with gloves. (I won't be getting rid of any antique books though)

I've become pretty fanatical lately about keeping my home cleaner. I used to think it wasn't that important. Now I dust like a fiend. Do fiends dust? I used to think I had a problem dust allergy but now I realize (duh) it's smart for the body to go into high alert.

I furnished my home about 25 years ago. One of the things I've noticed is that several rug liners are just deteriorating into dust. I've gotten rid of some that I can but some are nailed down and won't be leaving until I get it torn up. Can't be good. It's the plasticized backing that is just falling away to nothing. I've decided I want to stop bringing plastics in as furnishings but it's very hard. I'm also getting rid of plastic shelf liners. Sometimes I put clean white sheets over my upholstery, especially when it is hot and we are sweaty, because they are probably coated with toxic dyes and stain-resistant coatings. The underside fabric of a box spring just fell to dust one day. So much dust under every bed so quickly. Many types of insulation have been toxic or destructive to the lungs. Maybe not newspapers or horse hair.

I wish I didn't choose the type of heat that blows air around. We have a heated floor in one bathroom and that is very nice but expensive. I wish the whole house was like that. Let sleeping dust lie. Some of the people in my family love their fans but gosh they kick up the dust.

Eio, Hermes and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#15 · February 26, 2024, 12:37 pm

Quote from Eio on February 26, 2024, 12:37 pm

Quote from lil chick on February 26, 2024, 7:12 am

Toxic home furnishings isn't really a new thing. I was just watching a video the other day about how anything green (such as fabric, wallpaper, paint) in the victorian era was possibly toxic enough that if you have an old green victorian book you probably want to handle it with gloves. (I won't be getting rid of any antique books though)

I've become pretty fanatical lately about keeping my home cleaner. I used to think it wasn't that important. Now I dust like a fiend. Do fiends dust? I used to think I had a problem dust allergy but now I realize (duh) it's smart for the body to go into high alert.

I furnished my home about 25 years ago. One of the things I've noticed is that several rug liners are just deteriorating into dust. I've gotten rid of some that I can but some are nailed down and won't be leaving until I get it torn up. Can't be good. It's the plasticized backing that is just falling away to nothing. I've decided I want to stop bringing plastics in as furnishings but it's very hard. I'm also getting rid of plastic shelf liners. Sometimes I put clean white sheets over my upholstery, especially when it is hot and we are sweaty, because they are probably coated with toxic dyes and stain-resistant coatings. The underside fabric of a box spring just fell to dust one day. So much dust under every bed so quickly. Many types of insulation have been toxic or destructive to the lungs. Maybe not newspapers or horse hair.

I wish I didn't choose the type of heat that blows air around. We have a heated floor in one bathroom and that is very nice but expensive. I wish the whole house was like that. Let sleeping dust lie. Some of the people in my family love their fans but gosh they kick up the dust.

I need to dust now that you mention it. haha Rugs that have latex backing are great to keep them in place but they don't last long. When they get crumbly I get rid of them. I try not to have many small rugs but they are needed at the doors and a place for the dog to lie down out of the way.

And that green paint has arsenic in it. It was great to keep fungus from growing but it isn't too good for us either.

Quote from lil chick on February 26, 2024, 7:12 am

Toxic home furnishings isn't really a new thing. I was just watching a video the other day about how anything green (such as fabric, wallpaper, paint) in the victorian era was possibly toxic enough that if you have an old green victorian book you probably want to handle it with gloves. (I won't be getting rid of any antique books though)

I've become pretty fanatical lately about keeping my home cleaner. I used to think it wasn't that important. Now I dust like a fiend. Do fiends dust? I used to think I had a problem dust allergy but now I realize (duh) it's smart for the body to go into high alert.

I furnished my home about 25 years ago. One of the things I've noticed is that several rug liners are just deteriorating into dust. I've gotten rid of some that I can but some are nailed down and won't be leaving until I get it torn up. Can't be good. It's the plasticized backing that is just falling away to nothing. I've decided I want to stop bringing plastics in as furnishings but it's very hard. I'm also getting rid of plastic shelf liners. Sometimes I put clean white sheets over my upholstery, especially when it is hot and we are sweaty, because they are probably coated with toxic dyes and stain-resistant coatings. The underside fabric of a box spring just fell to dust one day. So much dust under every bed so quickly. Many types of insulation have been toxic or destructive to the lungs. Maybe not newspapers or horse hair.

I wish I didn't choose the type of heat that blows air around. We have a heated floor in one bathroom and that is very nice but expensive. I wish the whole house was like that. Let sleeping dust lie. Some of the people in my family love their fans but gosh they kick up the dust.

I need to dust now that you mention it. haha Rugs that have latex backing are great to keep them in place but they don't last long. When they get crumbly I get rid of them. I try not to have many small rugs but they are needed at the doors and a place for the dog to lie down out of the way.

And that green paint has arsenic in it. It was great to keep fungus from growing but it isn't too good for us either.

lil chick and Hermes have reacted to this post.

#16 · February 27, 2024, 7:26 am

I grow my own herbs and love having their scents around me as they dry, it's almost like a high. And when the lilacs bloom I go stick my head in them. Magical.

I like peppermint now and then and the occasional curry.

Even though I've studied and know that plant poisons exist, I think we should enjoy life.

Hermes and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#17 · February 28, 2024, 1:13 am

Karen Hurd is fine with enjoying flower scents and herbs 🙂

She is just not fine with the unnaturally concentrated stuff like perfumes and essential oils because they cause a much stronger reaction than the scents in their natural form. It is quite a difference.

I realized after stopping using perfumes and perfumed laundry soap etc. my own ability to smell is better and I enjoy that 🙂

Consumption of organic meat does not diminish the carcinogenic potential associated with the intake of persistent organic pollutants (POPs) [Study from 2015]

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