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Dairy and blaming vit A- how did Grant separate the variables?
Hi there
I am new here, and learning all I can about Grant's theory. Could anyone point me in the right direction to read about the link between dairy and autoimmunity being the Vit/Poison A rather than just an imbalance in the microbiome and a lack of casein/lactose-digesting gut bugs? Couldn't the remission of inflammatory conditions such as eczema and asthma etc be explained by simply cutting out dairy foods rather than cutting out the vit A that dairy contains? Apologies if this has already been explained and debunked. Also does Grant talk about connections between vit A and the microbiome anywhere in his work more generally? Thanks all, Elizabeth
The best explanation is in Grant's ebooks. Basically though, I think when he was researching eczema he noticed that there were certain trigger foods that came up again and again (one of those was dairy). He looked at the nutritional data of those trigger foods those for substances that were common to all and then examined them to see which if any were capable of causing eczema. The answer was vitamin A. He goes through it in more detail and explains his sequence of thoughts but that was his basic starting point.
I really would recommend reading his books.
Hi Elizabeth,
The link between Hypervitaminosis A and digestive diseases is a tenuous hypothesis currently in terms of any solid evidence backing it up. I've seen studies that show that sufferers of Crohns disease actually have low levels of Vitamin A, there are seemingly contradictory studies although I haven't analysed them in depth to expose any problems with their methodology.
Studies suggest the possibility of retinoic acid causing digestive disease, this is partially genetic i.e. some are genetically more susceptible to retinoic acid causing harm. This is backed up by the side effects/poisoning effects of taking Accutane, it can cause digestive disease.
If someone gets eczema or asthma flaring up because of dairy then that is likely to be a result of the casein not the Vitamin A in the dairy itself, people normally react more to milk and cheese rather than to butter or ghee even though butter and ghee are the significant sources of exposure to Vitamin A from dairy.
The hypothesis of Vitamin A causation of digestive disease revolves more around Hypervitaminosis A causing elevated levels of retinoic acid in the body. This elevated retinoic acid then leading to the underlying issues that cause the allergy to casein in the first place. One plausible way it could create dairy allergy is by literally making holes in the intestine, retinoic acid is used for skin peels in beauty clinics so it really isn't a stretch.
In conclusion, yes you may be able to bring eczema and asthma into remission through dairy (and/or gluten) avoidance but the excess levels of retinoic acid in ones body may be the underlying reason for the allergy in the first place.
When it comes to gluten, Stephanie Seneff has discussed how excess RA is a risk factor for celiac disease: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3945755/
Thanks both, it looks like I need to undertake a wider investigation of this approach then... I know Dr Smith is looking at the interaction of glyphosate and vit A, but off the top of my head I can think of so many other things that can damage the epithelial tissue from the get-go- not least adjuvants and heavy metals in vaccines, antibiotics etc. Seems like quite a leap to posit retinoic acid as the precursor to these inflammatory reactions- but I am open to finding out.
Quote from tim on August 25, 2019, 6:45 amHi Elizabeth,
The link between Hypervitaminosis A and digestive diseases is a tenuous hypothesis currently in terms of any solid evidence backing it up. I've seen studies that show that sufferers of Crohns disease actually have low levels of Vitamin A, there are seemingly contradictory studies although I haven't analysed them in depth to expose any problems with their methodology.
So if we're talking about vitamin A serum levels, seriously vitamin A overloaded people will have low vitamin A serum levels simply because their body can't handle it in their blood stream anymore, especially if they're continually intoxing. Dr. Smith has many clients that start out with lower serum vitamin A levels and it pushes much higher after starting the diet.
Unfortunately I can't give a personal experience since I never got a baseline, but 4 and 8 months in, I still have really high levels of 65+; i'm currently nearing 12 months. using levels to measure toxicity while still intoxing vitamin A isn't all that great.
Quote from Elizabeth Wells on August 25, 2019, 7:20 amThanks both, it looks like I need to undertake a wider investigation of this approach then... I know Dr Smith is looking at the interaction of glyphosate and vit A, but off the top of my head I can think of so many other things that can damage the epithelial tissue from the get-go- not least adjuvants and heavy metals in vaccines, antibiotics etc. Seems like quite a leap to posit retinoic acid as the precursor to these inflammatory reactions- but I am open to finding out.
I agree, it's a holistic system that has sent us into this epidemic of failing heath, although those of us who took Accutane experienced a barrage of crippling 'auto immune' side effects directly after taking this drug.
I grew up in Australia, where food is much less fortified with Vitamin A as opposed to the US. Also, my diet, although occasionally eating carrots, saw no heavy or prolonged inclusion of liver, peppers, sweet potato etc.
There's no doubt in my mind all of my symptoms were directly attributed to Accutane. All I can assume is that some of us are genetically prone to storing it immeditablty and perhaps without adipose tissue accumulating to buffer its toxicity.
Quote from pano200 on August 25, 2019, 1:05 pm
So if we're talking about vitamin A serum levels, seriously vitamin A overloaded people will have low vitamin A serum levels simply because their body can't handle it in their blood stream anymore, especially if they're continually intoxing. Dr. Smith has many clients that start out with lower serum vitamin A levels and it pushes much higher after starting the diet.
Unfortunately I can't give a personal experience since I never got a baseline, but 4 and 8 months in, I still have really high levels of 65+; i'm currently nearing 12 months. using levels to measure toxicity while still intoxing vitamin A isn't all that great.
This study used both serum retinol and the RDR test: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4316104/
Makes sense what you say about serum retinol but do we know anything about the accuracy of the RDR test?
Quote from tim on August 25, 2019, 4:17 pm
This study used both serum retinol and the RDR test: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4316104/
Makes sense what you say about serum retinol but do we know anything about the accuracy of the RDR test?
One weakness of the research design in that paper is that 34 out of 38 (or 90%) of the Crohn's patients were in remission. If Crohn's draws down retinol stores, then it would make sense to find lower hepatic retinol stores among Crohn's patients who are in remission. They also excluded anybody with additional autoimmune diseases.
It's worth pointing out that the relationship they observed between Crohn's and VA 'deficiency' is pretty weak, with only about 37% of Crohn's patients exhibiting VAD, compared to 12% in controls. They are also agnostic about the causal direction, suggesting that Crohn's might lead to impaired vitamin absorption, meaning the Crohn's caused the 'deficiency.' (Though they note that there was no relationship between VA consumption in diet and VAD status.)
The RDR method looks at how quickly the liver draws down serum retinol levels after a dose of retinol is given to subjects after fasting. The idea is that the lower the hepatic stores of retinol, the faster the liver will drawn down the retinol in serum, because it "needs" more retinol (or since the liver is presumed to have less stored, it draws more retinol more quickly from the blood stream).
Is it possible though that there are other conditions where the liver will draw down retinol more quickly? For example, if the body is actively fighting an autoimmune disease, then perhaps the liver goes into overdrive trying to sop up excess retinol...?
Here is a discussion of the RDR (relative dose response) test from the paper:
"Vitamin A liver stores-the RDR test: The RDR test is a noninvasive, functional test that allows an indirect, accurate estimation of the total hepatic stores of vitamin A[21]. In all subjects, the RDR test was performed according to the following instructions. After a baseline blood collection (T0), 2500 IU of retinyl palmitate (UNICEF, Batch, SchemPTY. Co, Melbourne, Australia) was diluted in 1mL of oil solution and orally administered. All subjects then received a standard breakfast, with estimated total content of 16.2 g of lipids and 111.5 μg retinol activity equivalents (RAE) of vitamin A. After a 5-h interval with no food intake, a second blood collection was carried out. The therapeutic response was evaluated by assessing circulating values of serum retinol 5 h after vitamin A administration. RDR was calculated by the formula described by Loerch et al[22], and an RDR ≥ 20% was used as the cut-off point, above which is considered a positive RDR and an indirect indication of inadequate hepatic stores[23]."
Later they write:
"Low body stores of vitamin A are detected reliably only when plasma retinol concentrations are lower than 100 μg/L[42]. To resolve these inaccuracies, the RDR test has been proposed as a way to calculate the total body store of retinol, based on the principle that the plasma retinol concentration is little affected by oral administration of vitamin A when the hepatic stores of retinol are high. When the liver reserves are low, however, the plasma retinol concentration increases markedly, reaching a peak in 5 h[42]. A positive RDR test in individuals with normal SRL indicates that their hepatic stores of retinol are affected, while still maintaining an adequate serum retinol concentration[42]. In our series, five CD patients had normal SRL with a positive RDR test, which indicated normal retinol levels in their sera, despite low retinol stores in the liver. This active balance between serum levels and the hepatic stores of retinol was also demonstrated by the finding that the mean SRL was lower in patients with a positive RDR test compared with subjects with a negative test. It is important, therefore, to evaluate the SRL along with the RDR test to achieve an accurate global diagnosis of hypovitaminosis A."
Citations 22, 23 and 42 deserve a more thorough reading to understand the scientific basis for the RDR test.
42. Tanumihardjo SA. Assessing vitamin A status: past, present and future. J Nutr. 2004;134:290S–293S. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]
Quote from Elizabeth Wells on August 25, 2019, 5:03 amHi there
I am new here, and learning all I can about Grant's theory. Could anyone point me in the right direction to read about the link between dairy and autoimmunity being the Vit/Poison A rather than just an imbalance in the microbiome and a lack of casein/lactose-digesting gut bugs? Couldn't the remission of inflammatory conditions such as eczema and asthma etc be explained by simply cutting out dairy foods rather than cutting out the vit A that dairy contains? Apologies if this has already been explained and debunked. Also does Grant talk about connections between vit A and the microbiome anywhere in his work more generally? Thanks all, Elizabeth
Hi Elizabeth,
This is an excellent question.
One way that Grant 'separated the variables' is by using Mill's method of difference when investigating what could be the cause of eczema. (Which was one of those strokes of brilliance that seems like such an obvious thing to do in retrospect.) He started with a list of several very *different* foods known to trigger eczema. Then he looked at what was common to all of them. This is an inductive method for figuring out a necessary cause or condition of something. The common ingredient to all of those foods was vitamin A. Could there be other common ingredients? Perhaps. I don't know. But we do know that vitamin A was an ingredient that was known to cause many problems that look like auto-immune diseases. And we also know that vitamin A in the form of retinoic acid is used for chemical peels of skin, where they basically burn the skin off. Sounds like eczema.
Grant also wrote at some point in his book that he ate part of a carrot at some point to see what would happen and his skin became inflamed again. Then even later he took lutein and zeaxanthin supplements and his health spiraled downhill again. I don't recall if his eczema flared, but both retest experiments give a strong indication that it's not just dairy.
By the way, I would have to disagree with Tim's statement that "eczema or asthma flaring up ... is likely to be a result of the casein not the Vitamin A in the dairy itself, people normally react more to milk and cheese rather than to butter or ghee even though butter and ghee are the significant sources of exposure to Vitamin A from dairy."
My understanding of Grant's argument about casein is that it wraps retinoic acid such that it evades the body's normal defenses or means of dealing with retinol/retinoic acid. This is exacerbated by the pasteurization process. So it's not about a casein allergy. Nor is it about the microbiome not being able to digest casein. It's specifically about the vitamin A molecules wrapped inside the casein that cause the harm, in addition to any vitamin A in dairy that is not wrapped up in the casein protein. As for why butter isn't as bad as dairy, I think the argument there is that the vitamin A in butter is blunted by the fat content. Presumably the vitamin A in butter is (more likely to be) esterified, which makes it less toxic and/or makes it easier for the body to cope with as it is already in its 'storage' form.
Since we are talking about logic here, my brain can't handle that butter is OK while raw whole milk isn't--given that most of the fats of raw whole milk are ... butter. ie, if you just physically (low tech) shake a jar of milk you are left with a pat of butter and a skim-milk product called buttermilk.
And I believe that the skim milk cure of ~100 years ago ... worked because it was a low VA diet.
(I drink about 1 cup of raw whole milk a day because it helps my carpal tunnel. However, I'm not on team zero, and this is my big cheat)