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Dark side of Antioxidants like "Vitamin" C, etc

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"Vit" C blocks immune system like other antibiotic to prevent septic shock from the consequences of killing too much bacteria, but if you are not required it as antibiotic against active infection(like plants, etc always do) it will simply make your immune system much more weaker just like any other antibiotic...

Basically the same thing happens with "Vit" A:

https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/vitamin-a-supplementation-may-cause-immune-system-to-forget-past-infections/

And if you are adding another crap to the mix like "lutein zeaxanthin lycopene scfa pufa" (especially in overdoses) your innate immunity becomes even more weaker

Arena and Даниил have reacted to this post.
ArenaДаниил

@rockarolla hm interesting. So maybe I will try using it only if I feel getting sick and for daily intake I will eat some kiwi fruits..

Intakes of Antioxidants in Coffee, Wine, and Vegetables Are Correlated with Plasma Carotenoids in Humans
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/134/3/562/4688575

[..]The objective of this study was to determine the contribution of various food groups to total antioxidant intake, and to assess the correlations of the total antioxidant intake from various food groups with plasma antioxidants. We collected 7-d weighed dietary records in a group of 61 adults with corresponding plasma samples, and used data from a nationwide survey of 2672 Norwegian adults based on an extensive FFQ. The total intake of antioxidants was ∼17 mmol/d with β-carotene, α-tocopherol, and vitamin C contributing <10%. The intake of coffee contributed ∼11.1 mmol, followed by fruits (1.8 mmol), tea (1.4 mmol), wine (0.8 mmol), cereals (i.e., all grain containing foods; 0.8 mmol), and vegetables (0.4 mmol). The intake of total antioxidants was significantly correlated with plasma lutein, zeaxanthin, and lycopene. Among individual food groups, coffee, wine, and vegetables were significantly correlated with dietary zeaxanthin, β-carotene, and α-carotene. These data agree with the hypothesis that dietary antioxidants other than the well-known antioxidants contribute to our antioxidant defense. Surprisingly, the single greatest contributor to the total antioxidant intake was coffee.

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Antioxidants Accelerate the Growth and Invasiveness of Tumors in Mice
https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2015/antioxidants-metastasis

To investigate how antioxidants might affect cancer progression, Martin Bergö, Ph.D., of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, led a 2014 study in mouse models of human lung cancer. The researchers found that adding the antioxidants N-acetylcysteine (NAC) or vitamin E to the diet of mice with small lung tumors substantially increased the number, size, and stage of the tumors. Additional work showed that the NAC and vitamin E reduced levels of ROS and DNA damage in cancer cells, and essentially eliminated expression of the gene p53—a tumor suppressor gene that is typically activated by DNA damage.

Based on the available evidence, Dr. Bergö said he was extremely concerned with the aggressive marketing of antioxidants to cancer patients. The data strongly suggest that using antioxidants “could be really dangerous in lung cancer and melanoma, and possibly other cancers,” he said. “And because there’s no strong evidence that antioxidants are beneficial, cancer patients should be encouraged to avoid supplements after they have a diagnosis.”

 

 

 

lil chick, Ourania and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
lil chickOuraniaRetinoiconДаниил

Extra virgin olive oil (EVOO) is a complex mix containing fatty acids such as oleic acid and minor compounds such as simple polyphenols (tyrosol and hydroxytyrosol), adhehydic secoiridoids (oleuropein), flavonoids and lignans (pinoresinol) as well as hydrocarbons (scualene), tocopherols(vitamin E), phytosterols (β-sitosterol) and triterpenes (maslinic acid). Main components of extra virgin olive oil are:

Effects of Ex Vivo y-Tocopherol on Airway Macrophage Function in Healthy and Mild Allergic Asthmatics
https://cfpub.epa.gov/si/si_public_record_report.cfm?Lab=NHEERL&direntryid=273445&searchall=asthma&subject=asthma&sortby=revisiondate&showcriteria=2

Elevated inflammation and altered immune responses are features found in atopic asthmatic airways. Recent studies indicate y-tocopherol (GT) supplementation can suppress airway inflammation in allergic asthma. We studied the effects of in vitro GT supplementation on receptor-mediated phagocytosis and expression of cell surface molecules associated with innate and adaptive immunity on sputum-derived macrophages. Cells from nonsmoking healthy (n = 6)and mild house dust mite-sensitive allergic asthmatics (n =6) were treated ex vivo with GT (300 uM) or saline (control). Phagocytosis of opsonized zymosan A bioparticles (Saccharomyces cerevisiae) and expression of surface molecules associated with innate and adaptive immunity were assessed using flow cytometry. GT caused significantly decreased (p < 0.05) internalization of attached zymosan bioparticles and decreased (p < 0.05) macrophage expression of CD206,CD36 and CD86 in allergic asthmatics but not in controls. Overall, GT caused down regulation of both innate and adaptive immune response elements, and atopic status appears to be an important factor.
...
In contrast to studies on neutrophils, only a few conflicting studies have reported specifically on the effects of vitamin E on innate immune function in mononuclear phagocytes (monocytes and macrophages).

Innate Immune Response Markers

The macrophage mannose receptor (CD206) is a type C scavenger receptor (SR-C1, SRCL-1) similar to type A scavenger receptors but also having a C-type lectin/carbohydrate recognition domain. It is important for phagocytosis of carbohydrates, glycoprotein and other molecules, and also functions in the presentation of mannose bearing antigens to T cells by macrophages and a subset of dendritic cells. Multivariate analysis showed that GT treatment had a significant (p = 0.02) downregulating effect on CD206 expression on sputum macrophages in the combined healthy and allergic groups ( fig. 4 a). When looking at the individual groups alone, we found a significant GT treatment effect in the allergic group (p = 0.04) but not in the healthy group.

A major function of lung macrophages is the phagocytic uptake of inhaled and deposited particles for their clearance from the epithelial surfaces [35] . In order to study the effects of GT on airway macrophage function, we examined the effects of ex vivo GT treatment on sputum cell phagocytic activity and expression of cell surface proteins associated with both innate and adaptive immune function. Our results show that ex vivo GT treatment of sputum-derived airway macrophages caused decreases in certain phagocytic indices, downregulated expression of specific cell surface proteins and that atopic status appears to be an important factor.
...
In conclusion, we showed in this novel study on sputum macrophages a downregulating effect of GT[y-tocopherol, the major form of vitamin E] on surface proteins related to innate and adaptive immunity, whereby the asthmatic status was an important factor. In addition, GT had an attenuating effect on the more activated macrophages in asthmatic subjects, as it decreased certain phagocytic indices and surface proteins associated with antigen presentation by these cells. This study confirms that GT exerts differential effects on airway macrophage function in mild allergic asthmatics versus healthy individuals and supports findings of previous studies in animals which indicate GT supplementation may be beneficial in the treatment or prevention of allergic airway inflammation. These findings further our understanding of the role of airway surface macrophages in host defense, and provide a basis for further investigation into the effects of GT treatment on macrophage function, particularly in allergic asthmatic populations.

Fluctuation of serum vitamin E (α-tocopherol) concentrations during exacerbation and remission phases in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00380-009-1206-6

The etiology of chronic fatigue syndrome remains unknown. Oxidative stress may be involved in its pathogenesis. Vitamin E is a major endogenous lipid-soluble antioxidative substance, and is consumed during the lipid peroxidation process. We studied a population comprising 27 patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (10 men and 17 women, 29 ± 6 years of age) and 27 age- and sex-matched control subjects. Serum vitamin E (α-tocopherol) concentrations were determined and expressed as mg/g total lipids (total cholesterol and triglyceride) to evaluate oxidative stress. Serum α-tocopherol concentrations (mg/g lipids) were significantly (P < 0.001) lower in the patients with chronic fatigue syndrome (2.81 ± 0.73) than in the control subjects (3.88 ± 0.65). The patients with chronic fatigue syndrome were re-examined during a follow-up interval. After 8 ± 2 months, 16 patients exhibited a status that warranted re-examination during remission of the symptoms at a regular visit to our hospital (Group 1), while the remaining 11 did not (Group 2). The serum α-tocopherol levels were significantly elevated during remission as compared with those at baseline in Group 1 (2.71 ± 0.62 → 3.24 ± 0.83, P < 0.001). The levels did not significantly change after the interval in Group 2 (2.97 ± 0.86 → 2.85 ± 0.73, not significant). In conclusion, serum α-tocopherol concentrations were significantly lower in the patients with chronic fatigue syndrome as compared with the control subjects, suggesting increased oxidative stress in the former. The low level of serum α-tocopherol was ameliorated during the remission phase as compared with the exacerbation phase in the patients with chronic fatigue syndrome, suggesting that increased oxidative stress may be involved in the pathogenesis of chronic fatigue syndrome and might also be directly related to the severity of the symptoms of chronic fatigue syndrome.

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminE-HealthProfessional/
Numerous foods provide vitamin E. Nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils are among the best sources of alpha-tocopherol, and significant amounts are available in green leafy vegetables and fortified cereals (see Table 2 for a more detailed list). Most vitamin E in American diets is in the form of gamma-tocopherol from soybean, canola, corn, and other vegetable oils and food products.

Vitamin E (α- and γ-Tocopherol) Levels in the Community: Distribution, Clinical and Biochemical Correlates, and Association with Dietary Patterns
https://www.mdpi.com/2072-6643/10/1/3/htm
the half-life of α-tocopherol in plasma is 48h, and the ingested α-tocopherol appears in plasma within 2–4h and peaks in 5–14h

Attenuation of lipopolysaccharide (LPS)-induced cytotoxicity by tocopherols and tocotrienols
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24024142/

Protective effect of vitamin E in an animal model of LPS-induced inflammation
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15663600/

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The association between vitamin E deficiency and critically ill children with sepsis and septic shock
https://ma.x-mol.com/paper/1395481143459430400

Background: Literature is scarce on the assessment of vitamin E status in septic children. We aim to investigate the prevalence of vitamin E deficiency in critically ill children with sepsis and septic shock and its association with clinical features and outcomes. Methods: We compared serum vitamin E status between the confirmed or suspected infection and no infection groups, the sepsis shock and no sepsis shock groups upon pediatric intensive care unit admission. Clinical characteristics were compared in subgroup patients with and without vitamin E deficiency. The association between vitamin E deficiency and septic shock were evaluated using univariate and multivariable methods. Results: 182 critically ill children with confirmed or suspected infection and 114 without infection were enrolled. The incidence of vitamin E deficiency was 30.2% in the infection group and 61.9% in the septic shock subgroup (P < 0.001). 30-days mortality in critically ill children with vitamin E deficiency was significantly higher than that without vitamin E deficiency (27.3%, vs. 14.2%, P < 0.05). Vitamin E levels were inversely associated with higher pediatric risk of mortality (r = − 0.238, P = 0.001) and cardiovascular sequential organ failure assessment (r= -0.249, p<0.001) scores in critically ill children with infection. In multivariable logistic regression, vitamin E deficiency showed an independent effect on septic shock (adjusted OR:6.749, 95%CI: 2.449-18.60, P<0.001). Conclusion: Vitamin E deficiency is highly prevalent in critically ill children with sepsis and contributed to the septic shock.

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Usefulness of Antioxidants as Adjuvant Therapy for Septic Shock: A Randomized Clinical Trial
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7698534/

 

Даниил has reacted to this post.
Даниил
Quote from rockarolla on June 5, 2021, 10:24 am

Intakes of Antioxidants in Coffee, Wine, and Vegetables Are Correlated with Plasma Carotenoids in Humans
https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/134/3/562/4688575

[..]The objective of this study was to determine the contribution of various food groups to total antioxidant intake, and to assess the correlations of the total antioxidant intake from various food groups with plasma antioxidants. We collected 7-d weighed dietary records in a group of 61 adults with corresponding plasma samples, and used data from a nationwide survey of 2672 Norwegian adults based on an extensive FFQ. The total intake of antioxidants was ∼17 mmol/d with β-carotene, α-tocopherol, and vitamin C contributing <10%. The intake of coffee contributed ∼11.1 mmol, followed by fruits (1.8 mmol), tea (1.4 mmol), wine (0.8 mmol), cereals (i.e., all grain containing foods; 0.8 mmol), and vegetables (0.4 mmol). The intake of total antioxidants was significantly correlated with plasma lutein, zeaxanthin, and lycopene. Among individual food groups, coffee, wine, and vegetables were significantly correlated with dietary zeaxanthin, β-carotene, and α-carotene. These data agree with the hypothesis that dietary antioxidants other than the well-known antioxidants contribute to our antioxidant defense. Surprisingly, the single greatest contributor to the total antioxidant intake was coffee.

+++

Antioxidants Accelerate the Growth and Invasiveness of Tumors in Mice
https://www.cancer.gov/news-events/cancer-currents-blog/2015/antioxidants-metastasis

To investigate how antioxidants might affect cancer progression, Martin Bergö, Ph.D., of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, led a 2014 study in mouse models of human lung cancer. The researchers found that adding the antioxidants N-acetylcysteine (NAC) or vitamin E to the diet of mice with small lung tumors substantially increased the number, size, and stage of the tumors. Additional work showed that the NAC and vitamin E reduced levels of ROS and DNA damage in cancer cells, and essentially eliminated expression of the gene p53—a tumor suppressor gene that is typically activated by DNA damage.

Based on the available evidence, Dr. Bergö said he was extremely concerned with the aggressive marketing of antioxidants to cancer patients. The data strongly suggest that using antioxidants “could be really dangerous in lung cancer and melanoma, and possibly other cancers,” he said. “And because there’s no strong evidence that antioxidants are beneficial, cancer patients should be encouraged to avoid supplements after they have a diagnosis.”

 

 

 

Maybe you have the full text of the second study, that's interesting ...

Maybe you have the full text of the second study, that's interesting ...

See attached file.

Uploaded files:
Даниил has reacted to this post.
Даниил

Vitamin C and E suppress mitogen-stimulated peripheral blood mononuclear cells in vitro
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17057410/

Background/aims: The antioxidant properties of vitamin C and E are considered to be important for their anti-inflammatory activity. Recently, antioxidant resveratrol was found to suppress neopterin production and tryptophan degradation in mitogen-treated human peripheral blood mononuclear cells.
Methods: In this study, the effects of vitamin C and E were investigated in unstimulated peripheral blood mononuclear cells and in cells stimulated with the mitogens phytohaemagglutinin and concanavalin A in vitro.
Results: The mitogens induced a significant production of neopterin and a degradation of tryptophan. Vitamin C (0.1-10 microM) and E (5-100 microM) suppressed these immunobiological pathways in a dose-dependent way (p < 0.01).

Conclusion: Neopterin production and tryptophan degradation in monocyte-derived macrophages are both triggered by the pro-inflammatory cytokine interferon-gamma. Thus, their concurrent suppression by vitamin C and E suggests an effect on the formation and release of this cytokine by stimulated T cells.
...
Thus, the data of this study are well in line with the conclusion that vitamin C and E suppressed the formation and release of IFN- in mitogen-stimulated PBMC. Such results confirm and extend very recent findings on the influence of vitamin C and E on regulatory T cells and dendritic cells in suppressing the release of Th1-type cytokines [17] . However, we cannot exclude the possibility of an additional direct effect of vitamins on neopterin production and tryptophan degradation in monocytederived macrophages
....
By down-regulating Th1-type immunity, vitamin C and E may disturb the balance between Th1- and Th2- type immune response. Thereby, antioxidant vitamins like vitamin C and E could increase the risk for allergic reactions in susceptible patients [23] . In a recent study it was demonstrated that vitamin C and E inhibit nuclear factor-  B translocation and interrupt oxidative pathways also in human dendritic cells by generating regulatory T cells [17] . Similarly, the vitamin-treated dendritic cells secreted higher levels of Th2 cytokines like interleukin-10, whereas the Th1-type cytokine IFN- was decreased. Thus, our data further indicate that excess vitamin C and E may favour Th2-type immune response and thereby may increase the risk of allergy. These findings may help to further understand the basis of allergic responses to citric fruits, which might be particularly relevant when antioxidants like vitamin C are applied as food preservatives in high concentrations (e.g. calcium ascorbate E 302). In summary, our study demonstrates that vitamin C and E interfere with immunopathogenetic pathways which involve Th1-type cytokine IFN- . They seem to interrupt pro-inflammatory cytokine cascades. Our data may relate to the anti-inflammatory property of antioxidant vitamins and to the general health benefits which are associated with their antioxidant nature.

 

[deleted for stupidity]

I wonder if somebodies threshold for VA toxicity is a function of the robustness of their immune system. After some experimentation I find I react badly to all antioxidants (vit. c, vit e, vit a, NAC, even coffee). The wikipedia article on antioxdative stress is very succinct.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidative_stress

@rockarolla your theories are starting to make a lot of sense to me now

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