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Extinguishing the theory of Vitamin-A toxicity in the west - Depletion of retinol levels as an immune response in infectious diseases and vaccination
Hello everyone. I have read Grant's book and it contains some interesting claims. I have put together an article that dives in to the science of retinol
and it's immune regulating abilities all backed up with scientific studies that pretty much shows a big flaw in the theory of widespeard toxicity. I hope you take the time to read it and also comment on it. The changed diets and the depletion rate (yes, we deplete stored retinol during immune responses to infectious diseases and inflammation, something Grant doesn't bring up) in todays world would point to a wide spread deficiency, however it could have been the other way around during war times in 40-60s when nutrition was scarse and the overuse of supplements (AD to infants, codliveroil) was pushed extensively.. I hope you find the article interesting.
https://tobiashietala.substack.com/p/extinguishing-the-theory-of-vitamin
Hi, the possibility of retinol being used up against infections and A.Mawson studies have been discussed here. I don't understand why you seem to worry about "wide spread deficiency" though.
I explain it in the article. High infection rate (infections, mass vaccinations) and changing diets - Low fat, seed oils, semiproducts point to an decinciency in the diet today. Plus "the possibility of retinol being used" is not so much a possibility but a truth with the science we have today.
@tobias-2 and do you know how much of it the body will use to fight that infection or whatever and what is intake of average person at least in western world and how much they can eliminate? If you think that people eating diet loaded with eggs, dairy, fortified foods, fruit and veggies loaded with beta carotenes, supplements etc. are deficient I think you are crazy hehe.. I think vit A is the same as copper. We need it, BUT in small amount. That amount is so small that it is not about intake at all. Everyone has plenty(if you are eating "normal" diet) but it is about having all the cofactors so the body can even use them like zinc for example. Which I think most people run low on zinc(you should look there and not into deficiency of vit A). I said it before I think Grant had more issue with low zinc not so much vit A toxicity..
I think in general people in third world countries run low in everything not just vit A, but most importantly protein, zinc, b vitamins etc. People in western world have too much vit A, iron, copper etc. even from normal diet and run low in key stuff like iodine, selenium, zinc, molybdenum, magnesium, K2 etc. and people from that western world who have no deeper knowledge on topic of diet, but just "try to be healthy" and so eat some paleo diet or whatever and eat basically nothing but "nutrient rich foods and superfoods" and take all kinds of supplements like cod liver oil, multivitamins etc.. they are just toxic like crazy and probably die sooner than some poor guy who is outside all day and eats nothing but noodles and can of tuna here and there lol..
Quote from Jiří on July 2, 2025, 12:13 am@tobias-2 and do you know how much of it the body will use to fight that infection or whatever and what is intake of average person at least in western world and how much they can eliminate? If you think that people eating diet loaded with eggs, dairy, fortified foods, fruit and veggies loaded with beta carotenes, supplements etc. are deficient I think you are crazy hehe.. I think vit A is the same as copper. We need it, BUT in small amount. That amount is so small that it is not about intake at all. Everyone has plenty(if you are eating "normal" diet) but it is about having all the cofactors so the body can even use them like zinc for example. Which I think most people run low on zinc(you should look there and not into deficiency of vit A). I said it before I think Grant had more issue with low zinc not so much vit A toxicity..
I think in general people in third world countries run low in everything not just vit A, but most importantly protein, zinc, b vitamins etc. People in western world have too much vit A, iron, copper etc. even from normal diet and run low in key stuff like iodine, selenium, zinc, molybdenum, magnesium, K2 etc. and people from that western world who have no deeper knowledge on topic of diet, but just "try to be healthy" and so eat some paleo diet or whatever and eat basically nothing but "nutrient rich foods and superfoods" and take all kinds of supplements like cod liver oil, multivitamins etc.. they are just toxic like crazy and probably die sooner than some poor guy who is outside all day and eats nothing but noodles and can of tuna here and there lol..
That depends of depletion rate but everything points to vitamin a deficiency in covid patients amongt others suggesting a rapid depletion to fight infection. Secondly, betacarotene has shown insufficient as a source for retinol (accoring to several studies) - also, how do we now the upper limit we are recommended is correct? When even the fact that vit A is a key component in fighting infections isnt discussed widely ?
@tobias-2 I think covid patients run low on zinc. Without zinc you can have all the retinol you want, but you will not make RBP. That is exactly the same scenario with copper that's why I said they are so similar. Copper is in everything. You get that 1mg a day easily even with low copper foods let alone if you eat some chocolate or legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds etc.. People have liver full of copper, but if they can't make ceruloplasmin it doesn't matter. THey will still end up with copper deficiency symptoms. So it is not just about intake.. Obviously you don't have any mainstream data on that because even "experts" don't understand this simple concept of bioavailability..
Hello, I think the claim on liver store depletion is a bit hyperbolic. I'm not an expert, but I went through some references, and there are serious gaps. I also looked into how much is depleted on average, and it's relatively small.
The papers you cited on retinol levels dropping
1. Retinol Depletion in COVID-19
2. A novel hypothesis for COVID-19 pathogenesis: Retinol depletion and retinoid signaling disorder
only discussed serum retinol, and instead speculated on liver stores.
To support their speculation, they both make the same, entirely questionable claim:
- Therefore, the serum retinol level is reduced only after vitamin A deficiency progresses following depletion of body's large vitamin A stores and detection of low serum retinol level means that retinol stores in the liver have already been significantly depleted [40].
- A drop in the serum retinol level occurs only after the deficiency progresses to severe levels when the liver retinol reserve is depleted. When serum retinol levels are low, the liver retinol stores are already depleted, and the disease is advanced [61], [62].
Here is just one article which shows that serum A levels can drop by 50% during an inflammatory event, like injecting LPS into rats:
This is an acute drop, not a permanent one. Inflammation doesn't just burn all of the liver's vitamin A in one go. The body can shut down its export of vitamin A from the liver in times of stress.
Paper #2 also makes this silly blanket statement:
However, the stored amount of RA in the human body is limited and is sufficient for about three months [41], [58], [59], [60].
This is laughable for most on this forum.
To steelman the idea that infections deplete vitamin A reserves, I did some digging. Here's one paper which discusses the storage issue more precisely:
Vitamin A in resistance to and recovery from infection: relevance to SARS-CoV2
The discussion on liver stores is quoted below:
Importantly, respiratory infections combined with low dietary VA intake could deplete liver VA stores in COVID-19 patients suffering from pneumonia to levels associated with VA deficiency, since urinary losses of >1000 μg retinol/d have been observed in 24 % of ICU patients with pneumonia and sepsis, representing a higher amount than the RDA for VA(82). We estimate that this level of urinary loss, combined with a postulated decrease in intake of approximately 50 % of the RDA for women hospitalised with COVID-19, could lead to a loss of approximately 1350 μg/d from liver stores. Such losses would lead to deficient liver stores (<20 μg/g) in approximately 3 weeks for a 61 kg women with relatively low pre-existing liver stores (40 μg/g; estimated liver weight of 2·4 % of body weight). Using data on estimated liver stores among US women of 129 (sd 89) μg/g who consumed high levels of VA (a mean intake of 173 (sd 111) % of the RDA of 700 μg retinol)(83), we estimate that approximately 16 % of women (those at least one sd below the mean) in a population with similarly high intake would have reserves of 40 μg/g or less. In populations consuming lower levels of VA, the percentage of individuals at risk for systemic VA deficiency would be higher.
These calculations are nonsense. They don't say which 24% lost >1000 micrograms. It could be the group with large levels of liver stores. The primary source did not include this information.
A primary source is here:
Vitamin A is excreted in the urine during acute infection
They give the average in the abstract:
The geometric mean excretion rate in 29 subjects with pneumonia and sepsis was 0.78 mumol retinol/d.
That's less than 250 micrograms per day, not >1000.
So to clarify the situation, on average, something like 250 micrograms per day can be lost to urine during an infection.
Over 3 weeks, that's around 5000 micrograms average total loss to urine. This is relatively light, like what could happen after a week or two of fasting.
Quote from Jiří on July 2, 2025, 12:42 am@tobias-2 I think covid patients run low on zinc. Without zinc you can have all the retinol you want, but you will not make RBP. That is exactly the same scenario with copper that's why I said they are so similar. Copper is in everything. You get that 1mg a day easily even with low copper foods let alone if you eat some chocolate or legumes, whole grains, nuts and seeds etc.. People have liver full of copper, but if they can't make ceruloplasmin it doesn't matter. THey will still end up with copper deficiency symptoms. So it is not just about intake.. Obviously you don't have any mainstream data on that because even "experts" don't understand this simple concept of bioavailability..
Read the studies in the article regarding retinol depletion in infections. Also the importance of a proper balance between A and D - then you know these are the main regulators for immune system fighting the infections.
Quote from whatisaging on July 2, 2025, 12:43 amHello, I think the claim on liver store depletion is a bit hyperbolic. I'm not an expert, but I went through some references, and there are serious gaps. I also looked into how much is depleted on average, and it's relatively small.
The papers you cited on retinol levels dropping
1. Retinol Depletion in COVID-19
2. A novel hypothesis for COVID-19 pathogenesis: Retinol depletion and retinoid signaling disorder
only discussed serum retinol, and instead speculated on liver stores.
To support their speculation, they both make the same, entirely questionable claim:
- Therefore, the serum retinol level is reduced only after vitamin A deficiency progresses following depletion of body's large vitamin A stores and detection of low serum retinol level means that retinol stores in the liver have already been significantly depleted [40].
- A drop in the serum retinol level occurs only after the deficiency progresses to severe levels when the liver retinol reserve is depleted. When serum retinol levels are low, the liver retinol stores are already depleted, and the disease is advanced [61], [62].
Here is just one article which shows that serum A levels can drop by 50% during an inflammatory event, like injecting LPS into rats:
This is an acute drop, not a permanent one. Inflammation doesn't just burn all of the liver's vitamin A in one go. The body can shut down its export of vitamin A from the liver in times of stress.
Paper #2 also makes this silly blanket statement:
However, the stored amount of RA in the human body is limited and is sufficient for about three months [41], [58], [59], [60].
This is laughable for most on this forum.
To steelman the idea that infections deplete vitamin A reserves, I did some digging. Here's one paper which discusses the storage issue more precisely:
Vitamin A in resistance to and recovery from infection: relevance to SARS-CoV2
The discussion on liver stores is quoted below:
Importantly, respiratory infections combined with low dietary VA intake could deplete liver VA stores in COVID-19 patients suffering from pneumonia to levels associated with VA deficiency, since urinary losses of >1000 μg retinol/d have been observed in 24 % of ICU patients with pneumonia and sepsis, representing a higher amount than the RDA for VA(82). We estimate that this level of urinary loss, combined with a postulated decrease in intake of approximately 50 % of the RDA for women hospitalised with COVID-19, could lead to a loss of approximately 1350 μg/d from liver stores. Such losses would lead to deficient liver stores (<20 μg/g) in approximately 3 weeks for a 61 kg women with relatively low pre-existing liver stores (40 μg/g; estimated liver weight of 2·4 % of body weight). Using data on estimated liver stores among US women of 129 (sd 89) μg/g who consumed high levels of VA (a mean intake of 173 (sd 111) % of the RDA of 700 μg retinol)(83), we estimate that approximately 16 % of women (those at least one sd below the mean) in a population with similarly high intake would have reserves of 40 μg/g or less. In populations consuming lower levels of VA, the percentage of individuals at risk for systemic VA deficiency would be higher.
These calculations are nonsense. They don't say which 24% lost >1000 micrograms. It could be the group with large levels of liver stores. The primary source did not include this information.
A primary source is here:
Vitamin A is excreted in the urine during acute infection
They give the average in the abstract:
The geometric mean excretion rate in 29 subjects with pneumonia and sepsis was 0.78 mumol retinol/d.
That's less than 250 micrograms per day, not >1000.
So to clarify the situation, on average, something like 250 micrograms per day can be lost to urine during an infection.
Over 3 weeks, that's around 5000 micrograms average total loss to urine. This is relatively light, like what could happen after a week or two of fasting.
main regulators for immune system fighting the infections.
It's an interesting topic for sure. The newer studies suggest a rapid depletion and if you read the studies regarding the occurance of unatural vaccine triggered serum retinol release to the point of accute toxicity that then drains the level storage the image becomes clear. Especially regarding the amount of infections the last 5 years, and the amount of injections.
@tobias-2 so how much kilos of liver a day are you eating to not end up dying from severe vitamin A depletion lol. 😀 I don't think I will start eating liver or any vit A bomb again. I can compare decade on vit A HEAVY diet and 8 years on very low vit A diet. Btw all those years on low vit A were during covid. I had it confirmed once with test.. It is amazing I didn't died from it when I was ingesting like 5% of RDA from green carotenes?