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Grant genereux
Hello Grant, in one of your latest posts, you indicate that it is mandatory to take fiber for the detoxification process. But in another publication you indicate that many people on a carnivore diet who do not eat liver do very well and do not have that setback of poisoning. You contradict yourself on that, since the carnivore diet does not have fiber. Could you clarify that contradiction between your Posts, thank you.
Hi @el,
Thanks for asking that question. It’s something I’ve been thinking about for a long time.
Yes, my general understanding is that the success rate with the carnivore diet is quite high. And very importantly without encountering this noticeable detox-setback cycle.
I think the carnivore diet success rate is probably significantly better than what we are seeing here.
My SWAG on it is:
Success Rate Dropout Rate Detox Setback Rate
------------------- ----------------- -------------------------
Carnivore: 80% ??? ~10%
Low vA diet: 50% 40% ~ 35%
Yet I have very little doubt that the setback cycle that people experience on the low vA diet is due to increased toxic bile being expelled by the liver and then getting reabsorbed in the enterohepatic circulation process. I think this can be regarded as a fact since many people have reported that their serum vA levels start going up after about 3-4 months of being on a low vA diet.
So, the question then becomes: why isn’t this happening on an all muscle meat carnivore diet? My best guess is that is because the carnivore diet is much higher in fat than the typical low vA diet being followed here.
That extra fat is probably sufficiently emulsifying the additional toxic bile and allowing it to get safely expelled with waste. So, I think the extra fat is performing the same job as what we are trying to accomplish with taking activated charcoal and fiber.
Could the low vA diet benefit from more fat? Yes, I think so, but I don’t have any recommendations on what the fat source should be.
Could the carnivore diet be improved with some added fiber? Maybe so? I don’t know. But it appears the extra fat is enough for many people.
I know there are some people here who have come from a carnivore diet. Maybe they can add their perspective on it.
Thanks
Very good point of view. but for example most of the studies are wrong. Most tribes in the world, whether vegan or carnivorous, are very low in soluble fiber. I find that an interesting point. Tribes that eat legumes or vegetables process them first and remove most of their fiber. Brown rice is mostly insoluble fiber, not soluble fiber. There is a study on the importance of stearic acid. The tribe that has the most stearic acid in its visceral mass is a tribe that feeds on seeds, specifically a seed that is low in vitamin A and moderate in fat and low in fiber. Most Americans take a lot of fiber and still get sick, what if soluble fiber makes the condition worse? From what I read you did not introduce soluble fiber until after a year, a reliable source of fat is millet and sorghum, moderate to low in fat, just what we need, low in fiber and very low in vitamin A, that is the tribe's diet. The healthiest people in the world eat millet and sorghum.
Back 10 years ago when Richard Nikoley, Tim Steele, Professor Wilbur, and the Duck Dodgers were studying fiber, they focused on insoluble fiber first, especially resistant starches which act like fiber; they are digested in the colon and do all sorts of amazing things. So, I'm not sure about the focus on soluble fiber, it definitely has a role, but the dramatic benefits that we observed back then involved a lot of insoluble fiber, especially as resistant starch, RSS2 and RSS3. Because we didn't really know much about fiber we just went half and half on soluble and insoluble fiber to make sure we weren't missing anything important. Please don't dismiss fiber until you give insoluble fiber and resistant starch a try. In large parts of Africa they have dramatic health benefits at 200 grams per day of RSS3 which they get from making corn bread and letting it sit 3 days where it converts to resistant starch. Then they eat it, dipping it into soup, etc. Given the high vitA intake from palm oil, maybe it is this resistant starch that is letting their bodies handle the vitA. The corn bread of course is made from white corn, nixtamalized like the South Americans traditionally did to neutralize the things in corn that rob your body of the B vitamins.
My guess is from first hand experience and anecdotal from others. And from some personal studies. Dismiss it as you see fit.
Denise Minger provides insights that explain well my issues transitioning and holding in various diets.
I did 20 years Standard American Diet.
14 years lacto ovo - one of those years in the middle vegan.
15 years 40/30/30 Zone Diet. Got plenty criticism for being low carb at the time.
12 years Paleo / Keto with plenty breaks for Carnivore. Kept total daily carbs well below 200 calories. I loved ikura, nori, liver, fish, steak, tallow, butter, sour cream, coconut oil,.......
1+ year vA / copper / B6 depleting diet
As Minger points out, body adjust well to keto when over 70% fat intake and to carbo when under 10% fat intake. In between is bad lands. She explains it well enough. For anyone who experienced first hand what she describes it is painfully accurate.
At each change in diet, I felt much better than the old one. I improved as I learned the ins and outs of each diet. Transition to Paleo / Keto first issue was not enough salt. Reduced phosphorus intake in Keto dropped blood pressure. Salted steaks dipped in ikura cured that.
During the Paleo / Keto years I ate cooked cabbage, cauliflower and broccoli. Sometimes I stuck to steak only. One consistent difference throughout those years is the reduced pooping. Far less often. Usually smaller. Always less stinky. Shawn Baker discussed it with me when asked significance. He replied he considered it time saved on the toilet for those of us who poop twice a week. No amount of fat got me to poop more. I could use high fat intake to induce a poop. Especially MCT oil. Considering what I learned this year about #toxicbiletheory, there is no way that I was clearing out toxins at any appreciable rate.
If I was not clearing them out, I was storing them. I felt great until I got run over by it. Isotretinoin induced sacroiliitis. I had a bad back I thought was due to kidney stones that I was working on with lemon water daily. That usually resolved the issue. This bad back got worse until I could not walk without a walker. I could not lay down for more than 15 minutes. I could not sit at all. When I tried to eat my favorite snack (dried liver) the pain ramped up to excruciating levels immediately and for days. That is part of how I decided to consider internet searches on Arctic explorers damaged by eating bear, seal and dog liver. This got me on to searches of hypervitaminosis A and eventually on to Grant and Garrett.
My recovery has brought improvements beyond where I was doing Paleo / Keto / sometimes Carnivore. It was predictable and predicted at every step where I refused to believe and or felt I could not comply with advised choices. Where I could not walk and sleep, I was told to keep slowly increasing daily sunfiber, charcoal, magnesium oxide and oatmeal while maintaining beef intake for taurine and zinc. The pain relented and still recedes in proportion to my successful excretion daily with plenty charcoal and fiber. I have tried variations to this prescription. It is not a matter of will power any more. I know the pain can return quickly and in proportion to what toxins my liver is dumping that do not get fully excreted by my colon.
Life is good and getting better. I ran a mile a couple months ago. Nosebreathing. First time I did that. I am 63. I want a 6 minute mile again. Nosebreathing this time.
Alright so this is all anecdotal. So is Grant's example. So there are two case studies with an N=1. Maybe I am just passing out Garrett's ideas. Oh wait, his experience makes for another case study with an N=1. And yes I have heard people describe his appearance as too white to be healthy. Be sure though his health is obviously improving. I am sure very educated people on here will argue all sorts of biomechanical theory and dogma as to why he and I are wrong. Until they step up with their own case study with an N=1, it is all just theory. In theory, practice works. In practice, theory rarely works.
I am here to say that in practice, Garrett's theories are working. As Grant's obviously is. For what it is worth there is a fast growing list of us talking on Garrett's network with similar anecdotal experience. More case studies with an N=1. While I read many arguments against Garrett here, I see very little in impressive case studies. I want to see who is on here eating 5 eggs per day running a mile nosebreathing at age 63. Anyone? Any age?
Quote from Joe on February 9, 2024, 12:06 amI want to see who is on here eating 5 eggs per day running a mile nosebreathing at age 63. Anyone? Any age?
Hi @joe, I'm 60 and I have taken on sprint-like exercise in the last few months. (I have never been sedentary). It has taken me quite a while, but now I can get to the top of my hill near my house without mouth breathing or getting off the bike (at least some days!). The distance is probably about once around the track (440) but the slope is tough. My thighs are building muscle, I had to buy new pants. :).
I probably eat more than the amount of preformed VA in 5 eggs of VA per day (but not all in eggs--moderate amounts of eggs, butter, milk, yogurt, cheese) . I have been at this diet 3.75 years, and most of it moderate after a more careful start. I don't eat much colored veg, but whitish ones. I eat some berries.
My guess is that I could be seeing slower benefits from my moderate diet than others here on prison food. But I like it. I'm pretty sure dairy is an ancestral food for me, it isn't for everyone.