Quote from ggenereux on November 11, 2019, 6:55 pm

Quote from Nail on November 11, 2019, 2:09 pm

 What do you think about it? Could it be possible?

@ggenereux2014 I would be glad to know your opinion 

 

Research: https://academic.oup.com/jn/article-abstract/109/5/787/4770723?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Hi Nail,

I no longer believe that vitamin A is even a “vitamin” at all. Retinoic acid is just the more toxic molecular form of it. And, I have read some research that retinoic acid is indeed detected in the liver and in the adipose tissues long after discontinued treatment.
But, since this is not a vitamin, it is not being “stored” in the liver for later use, rather it’s in the liver for detoxification and eventual disposal. So, what I think happens with Accutane use is that it both damages cells by causing gene mutations, and especially so in the epithelial, and endothelial tissues. These damaged cells then allow other circulating retinoids (retinol in the RBPs) to be more readily transported through their outer membranes. Thus, the apparent drop in vitA serum levels. BTW, the same phenomenon is observed in kids with autism, and in both cystic fibrosis and Sickle cell disease too. And, the same is observed in adults with schizophrenia, dementia and Alzheimer’s. Of course, it is hugely reported to be so post a measles infection. But, it is not that the so-called vitamin A is being used to combat the disease, rather it’s the damaged tissues that is more readily converting it into RA, and it’s the RA that’s causing the disease conditions.

But, there’s the all important detoxification side of the processes that needs to be discussed. The detoxification resources eventually get exhausted too and that's when people can get into deep trouble. So, once someone has been taking Accutane, or exposed to some other long-term tissue damaging event, then they are going to be much more susceptible to vitA toxicity.

Grant

Quote from Jenny on November 13, 2019, 1:57 pm

Also there were a couple of papers posted on Garrett Smith Facebook showing that excess of retinoic acid (as Accutane) down regulated the ADH/ALDH enzymes. 

Quote from ggenereux on November 13, 2019, 6:51 pm

Here are two early papers that document the incredible toxicity of RA,

From:
United States Patent Patent Number: 4,649,040
THERAPY FOR RETINOID PATHOGENESIS 
Assignee: The United States of America as 
represented by the Department of 
Health and Human Services, 
Washington, D.C.

In this HHS patent they clearly state that Retinoic Acid is a poison. In this patent they show that they have quickly poisoned to death many animals with the active form of the said-to-be “vitamin”.

Then:

THE PRODUCTION OF EXPERIMENTAL VITAMIN A DEFICIENCYIN RATS AND MICE

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1258/002367771781006492

Note this section:
 
Out of 9 male mice which had subsisted for 3 months on a diet containing retinoic acid, the testes were atrophied, and reduced to about one-third of their normal size, in 8 animals. The remaining mouse had normal testes, as judged by its ability to fertilise a normal female and by the weight of its testes found at autopsy. Out of 4 females which had subsisted on a diet containing retinoic acid, and had been mated with normal males, 2 had litters which were found dead soon after birth, one died for obscure reasons when in advanced stages of pregnancy, and the other failed to conceive. In contrast, similar mice dosed with retinol produced live litters.
 

Also note:
 
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS
We are grateful to Roche Products Ltd for supplies of retinoic acid, and for valuable advice about its admixture with the diet, to Dr J. T. Dingle for suggesting the use of retinoic acid for the temporary cure of vitamin A deficiency, to Professor M. Abercrombie for his valuable criticism, and to Mr Martin Applin for the care of the animals.                                      

So, Roche knew 50 years ago about the incredible toxicity, and specifically the reproductive toxicity, of RA.

Quote from Nail on November 15, 2019, 3:31 pm

@ggenereux2014 thank you for the answer. 

It seems to me that you take information without paying attention to the context. As for the first study, I agree with you that it is said that retinoic acid could be a toxic, but there are clearly pointed that the mice were given extremely high dosages of RA (500mg/1kg will kill anyone, just because even people, when they use this drug for acne, take maximum 1mg/1 kg). And scientists intentionally wanted to give this deadly dose for the finding a solution to get away from the toxicity. And what is interesting, they could find several substance, which helped mice not to die. But it could be an another topic to talk about.

In the experiments described hereunder mice (C57 BL/6J-males) were used. A toxic dose of 13-trans retinoic acid, 500 mg/kg, was administered by an intraperitoneal injection of the suspension of the acid in physiological saline.

And also this research claims that there exists both avitaminosis A and, as we all know, toxicity (due to high dosages of vit A).

Retinoids are lipophilic compounds possessing chemical and biological similarities to vitamin A. Retinoids mainly affect epithelial cells, both in vitro and in vivo and are critical for differentiation and maintenance of all epithelial tissues. Retinoid deficiency causes avitaminosis-A, which can be reversed by low doses of a suitable retinoid. At much higher doses, retinoids are employed for treating dermatological problems ranging from acne to psoriasis to skin cancer (Peck, Drugs 24: 341-351, 1982). In addition, retinoids have potential use in prevention of chemical carcinogenesis (Sporn, et al., Federation Proceedings 35: 1332-1338, 1976; Bolag, Cancer Chemother. Pharmacol. 3, 207-215, 1979) and in treatment of rheumatoid arthritis (Brinkerhoff, et al., Science 221, 756-758, 1983). However, at the therapeutic doses required for treating dermatological and other problems or ailments, retinoids evoke distinct pathological changes. 

Next study.
In the second one scientists have fed mice and rats with a deficient vitA diet and tried to replace a deficiency using retinoic acid. And all of the terrible symptoms were flared up by vitA deficiency (read the whole article).

About retinoic acid

An additional refinement, helpful when it
is desired to keep a supply of animals ready for use at short notice, is to give
doses of vitamin A acid (retinoic acid) as soon as signs of deficiency have
appeared in the adolescent animals. The acid restores growth and good
general health in deficient rats although allowing neither normal vision
(Dowling & Wald, 1960) nor normal reproduction (Thompson, Howell &
Pitt, 1964). Since retinoic acid is not stored in the body in significant amounts,
signs of deficiency, such as xerophthalmia and loss of bodyweight, reappear
soon after dosing has been discontinued. In the present work dosing with
retinoic acid has been used for effecting temporary cures in both rats and mice.

It is also said that the acid restored the growth and good general health in defecient animals, but after stopping taking it everything went back soon. So, there's a good point to think that retinoic acid doesn't store in the body as vitamin A does. And my theory above is still open for me.

Of course, I do understand that acid doesn't improve vision and reproductive functions of the vitamin A and these animals were still suffering from it. Just because other metobolite of vit A, retinal, is responsible for such functions in the body. 

To be honest, I do not believe in your theory that vitamin A is a fully poison.  Certainly, it can be a toxic if we use it in large amounts. It's like any other vitamin (for example, vit C) could be dangerous if it's overloaded in the body. And I'm truly grateful to you that you've helped other people to start recovering from the toxicity.  But a lot of the scientific articles claim that vitA is important for alive species in nature (ofc I mean in rational amounts). And also they have the researches how vitA deficiency can be harmful for animals, especially for the reproductive function. And I'll give you some kind of a weird example. What about eggs? Yolk  has lots of vitamin A in it and, as science says, it's responsible for the growth of the animals. Or you want to say that chicken just excretes "poison vitA" from the body in a such way? Doesn't it seem strange? 

Nail.

Quote from lil chick on November 15, 2019, 5:03 pm

I think we'd have to be aliens if we were not generally designed  to  utilize VA somehow (it is so ubiquitous).   I also think that Grant has a really good point that it specifically HARD to become VA deficient.  I doubt many people here can try the diet for long and dispute that, LOL.

It's so tempting to think that VA is just bad.  (I'm on team just-a-bit).   It's a perfect storm of VA out there!    The drug and supplement usage and the supplementing of foods.  The "eat the rainbow" propaganda and other special diets including low meat, low carb.  The way that corn has crept into every corner of food production--and corn is high in carotenes (corn is a New World Food and has never been the basis of European, Asian, Middle Eastern or African food production.)  The  chemicals that keep us from detoxing properly (roundup).   And lets not forget the vaccine thing that was posted a few weeks back.  I, for one, think that many in my family have "VA-stingy" genes (or perhaps you just begin life VA toxic if your mom was!)

There probably isn't even one person to study at as an example of someone that isn't affected by this VA madness.  Maybe we can look to nature and see how other living things use VA? 

Perhaps VA helps us convert sunshine to something we need, or it repels pests.

Quote from ggenereux on November 15, 2019, 8:46 pm

Quote from Nail on November 15, 2019, 3:31 pm

Hi @Nail,

RE: It seems to me that you take information without paying attention to the context.

Actually, I fully understood the context of that patent. And, no where in that patent do they state that RA “could be a toxic”. Rather, it’s that they have directly and unequivocally termed it to be a POISON, see Fig1 and Fig2. And they state: “It has been reported that the toxic effects of 13-cis-retinoic acid can be lowered by adjusting specific dosage regimens.” Clearly implying that it’s toxic even at low doses. The key point being that HHS as far back as 1984-1987 defined and knew full well that RA was a direct poison.

Then by 2002 there were 175 deaths in adults, and 200+ spontaneous abortions attributed to Accutane use (in humans). And yes, it was even at the very low “it’s a medicine” doses. It is also clearly documented to be teratogenic in humans at any dose. Of course, there are now tens of thousands of people permanently damaged by RA at the “it’s a medicine” dose. Furthermore, it is reported that almost no one taking this “drug” does not experience side-effects. So, clearly it is a poison at any dose. Some people are just lucky enough to be less severely damaged by it.

RE: It is also said that the acid restored the growth and good general health in deficient animals

This supposed phenomenon is well documented in people treated with RA. In the short term their tissues, particularly the skin and hair, go through a phase of rapid growth. But, then, they often later break out in lesions and rashes, etc. and their skin is often left permanently atrophied and damaged. The “phenomenon” is explained by understanding that their stem cells have actually been poisoned by the RA.

Here’s the thing people really need to appreciate. The human body tends towards healing and self repair. The human body, nature and even individual cells are ultra smart. So, why then are so many people now having their bodies slip deeper and deeper into a disease state, and that its happening on a massive scale around the globe too? This violates the laws of biology and nature. This is not “bad luck”, and there is a real reason as to why there are now hundreds of millions of people who are now sick. This scale and magnitude of disease is not at all normal in the human population, and even in the history of the world. Something is clearly causing it to happen.

Of course, there are many competing theories as to why so many people are mysteriously getting sick. But, the most basic and obvious conclusion is that this disease epidemic is the result of a slow poisoning. Vitamin A toxicity is a perfect match both from a symptom perspective, and from a temporal relationship perspective to that poisoning scenario. Then, consider that many people here in this community have been supplementing with vitamin A leading up to their decline into poor health. Next, people are now indeed slowly recovering their health by removing vitamin A from their diets. Sure, we still have a long way to go to prove it conclusively, but I think it is just a matter of time now.

Yes, so-called vitamin A is ubiquitous in our foods and in the plant world. But, we should not infer from there that it somehow must be a vitamin. Regarding your egg argument; similar claims are made in the context of modern human breast milk. Some people claim that vitamin A must be a vitamin just because it is accumulated in the mother’s breast milk. But now, so too does Dioxin, DDT, jet fuel, benzene etc. Of course, no one is going to claim that these toxic molecules are a “vitamin” on that basis.

Grant