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Hypophosphatemia and thiamine
Quote from
romaine on February 21, 2020, 3:52 pm
I've been experimenting with different doses of thiamine and other Bs for the last few weeks. Of those I was supplementing with, I have mostly taken fairly small amounts, but had a set back the last couple of days - increased insomnia, fatigue and headaches. This sent me back to the phoenixrising dot me forums. A poster/moderator there posted that when she first tried thiamine it helped but then she would crash a couple of days later. She somehow linked this with hypophosphatemia. When she took thiamine it she says it tanked her phosphate levels. I am not sure if she tried decreasing the amount of thiamine she took. Now she takes monosodium phosphate and says she needs to take it everyother day and if she stops her fatigue and other symptoms comes back. She says that thiamine is crucial for her and in order to take it she also needs to take phosphate supplements. One symptom of hypophosphatemia is soft bones and cavities - I have a curved spine and had a problem with cavities that started when I was a child. None of the common reasons for hypophosphatemia explain why I would have it when a young child but some people report as not having an explaination for their hypophosphatemia.
I ordered some monosodium phosphate and will report my experience. I did drink almost 3 cups of milk today and feel better but I don't want to drink milk unless not pasteurized and without added anything so I will count on getting more phosphorus through the supplement. I eat about 8 ounces of beef a day and about a cup or more of black beans and about a half cup of non fat yogurt so I do get plenty or so I thought from food. There is a syndrome called refeeding syndrome that explains the need for thiamine and phosphorus but don't know how that would fit in with hypervitaminosis A or my history.
I've been experimenting with different doses of thiamine and other Bs for the last few weeks. Of those I was supplementing with, I have mostly taken fairly small amounts, but had a set back the last couple of days - increased insomnia, fatigue and headaches. This sent me back to the phoenixrising dot me forums. A poster/moderator there posted that when she first tried thiamine it helped but then she would crash a couple of days later. She somehow linked this with hypophosphatemia. When she took thiamine it she says it tanked her phosphate levels. I am not sure if she tried decreasing the amount of thiamine she took. Now she takes monosodium phosphate and says she needs to take it everyother day and if she stops her fatigue and other symptoms comes back. She says that thiamine is crucial for her and in order to take it she also needs to take phosphate supplements. One symptom of hypophosphatemia is soft bones and cavities - I have a curved spine and had a problem with cavities that started when I was a child. None of the common reasons for hypophosphatemia explain why I would have it when a young child but some people report as not having an explaination for their hypophosphatemia.
I ordered some monosodium phosphate and will report my experience. I did drink almost 3 cups of milk today and feel better but I don't want to drink milk unless not pasteurized and without added anything so I will count on getting more phosphorus through the supplement. I eat about 8 ounces of beef a day and about a cup or more of black beans and about a half cup of non fat yogurt so I do get plenty or so I thought from food. There is a syndrome called refeeding syndrome that explains the need for thiamine and phosphorus but don't know how that would fit in with hypervitaminosis A or my history.
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Quote from
Rachel on February 22, 2020, 4:13 am
Refeeding syndrome is something they watch out for when treating anorexic patients. The explanations I read said that it is caused when your body switches from catabolic (breaking down tissues) to anobolic (rebuilding tissues) metabolism which puts a great demand on certain nutrients. It is also a risk in alcoholic patients which is interesting as when being treated and withdrawing from alcohol alcoholics need extra thiamine (for the alcohol dehydrogenase system I believe).
A close family member works in the eating disorder field and in the inpatient unit they routinely give thiamine to new patients. I think it is all linked.
Detoxing VA also puts demand on the alcohol dehydrogenase system. Maybe the thiamine you are taking is allowing this system to work harder and creating a similar demand on certain nutrients.
I experienced severe thiamine deficiency symptoms when I switched from pretty low carb to high carb. I suspect this was refeeding syndrome. Coincidentally I also reintroduced milk at the same time and was drinking a lot of that which is what I think spared me from low phosphorous problems. I think my long history of health problems and gut issues put me at nutritional risk even though I was not under weight at the time.
Do you think any of this could be relevant to you? Maybe as you are getting rid of the VA your body is doing a lot of rebuilding work and creating a kind of refeeding syndrome situation.
Refeeding syndrome is something they watch out for when treating anorexic patients. The explanations I read said that it is caused when your body switches from catabolic (breaking down tissues) to anobolic (rebuilding tissues) metabolism which puts a great demand on certain nutrients. It is also a risk in alcoholic patients which is interesting as when being treated and withdrawing from alcohol alcoholics need extra thiamine (for the alcohol dehydrogenase system I believe).
A close family member works in the eating disorder field and in the inpatient unit they routinely give thiamine to new patients. I think it is all linked.
Detoxing VA also puts demand on the alcohol dehydrogenase system. Maybe the thiamine you are taking is allowing this system to work harder and creating a similar demand on certain nutrients.
I experienced severe thiamine deficiency symptoms when I switched from pretty low carb to high carb. I suspect this was refeeding syndrome. Coincidentally I also reintroduced milk at the same time and was drinking a lot of that which is what I think spared me from low phosphorous problems. I think my long history of health problems and gut issues put me at nutritional risk even though I was not under weight at the time.
Do you think any of this could be relevant to you? Maybe as you are getting rid of the VA your body is doing a lot of rebuilding work and creating a kind of refeeding syndrome situation.
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Quote from
romaine on February 22, 2020, 7:09 am
@rachel. Thank you for that info, that is helpful. That could be what is going on with me now. I have always had low muscle tone despite exercising and lifting weights. At times have dieted on around 600 calories a day and been skinny fat. Don't know how that fits in with anything. What I'd like to figure out is why I had some issues as a kid that my kids have too. My guess is that it stems from the gut but exactly why, how....I'm not sure.
@rachel. Thank you for that info, that is helpful. That could be what is going on with me now. I have always had low muscle tone despite exercising and lifting weights. At times have dieted on around 600 calories a day and been skinny fat. Don't know how that fits in with anything. What I'd like to figure out is why I had some issues as a kid that my kids have too. My guess is that it stems from the gut but exactly why, how....I'm not sure.
puddleduck has reacted to this post.
Quote from
romaine on February 27, 2020, 10:00 am
Here is an update on my supplementing with monosodium phosphate. I started experimenting with drinking lots of milk to see if that would affect me and it seemed to make me feel better. It could have been due to the A (stopping detox) in the milk or calcium or something else and not the phosphorus content but I went ahead and got some monosodium phosphate (very cheap on the swanson vitamin website) and having been using it since this past Saturday. I haven't had as many headaches and have been sleeping longer though those 2 things are still not resolved completely and I have a long way to getting back to where I was before the protocol I was on for years that included retinoid supplements. My constipation has also gotten better to this past week. I credit the thiamine with phosphorus and maybe other Bs too for the improvements. I have also read that D3 is important for hypophosphatemia and supplementing phoshorus so I have added a little of that in the form of thorne D3/vitamin K drops the last few days though think it is the phosphorus supplement that has made the most immediate effect. A moderator on the phoenixrising forums posted her experience with hypophosphatemia and thiamine and my experience seems to echo hers.
Here is an update on my supplementing with monosodium phosphate. I started experimenting with drinking lots of milk to see if that would affect me and it seemed to make me feel better. It could have been due to the A (stopping detox) in the milk or calcium or something else and not the phosphorus content but I went ahead and got some monosodium phosphate (very cheap on the swanson vitamin website) and having been using it since this past Saturday. I haven't had as many headaches and have been sleeping longer though those 2 things are still not resolved completely and I have a long way to getting back to where I was before the protocol I was on for years that included retinoid supplements. My constipation has also gotten better to this past week. I credit the thiamine with phosphorus and maybe other Bs too for the improvements. I have also read that D3 is important for hypophosphatemia and supplementing phoshorus so I have added a little of that in the form of thorne D3/vitamin K drops the last few days though think it is the phosphorus supplement that has made the most immediate effect. A moderator on the phoenixrising forums posted her experience with hypophosphatemia and thiamine and my experience seems to echo hers.
puddleduck and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
puddleduck on February 27, 2020, 11:51 am
@romaine Thanks for the update! I’m so glad you’re seeing improvements. 😁 I’m sure this information will be helpful to others who are running into this problem when supplementing thiamin.
I think it’s also a good reminder of the importance of meat in the diet during this process.
@romaine Thanks for the update! I’m so glad you’re seeing improvements. 😁 I’m sure this information will be helpful to others who are running into this problem when supplementing thiamin.
I think it’s also a good reminder of the importance of meat in the diet during this process.
Quote from
lil chick on March 9, 2020, 8:24 am
I have been meaning to comment on the re-feeding thing. I've always been interested in why dogs who have been through neglect and starvation end up with mangey skin and missing fur. The reason I started thinking about this was that rosacea is thought to be similar to mange in some ways. When I've asked experts about this they say: Their immune system has taken a hit.
I wonder if neglected/starving dogs are going through VA detox with not enough nutritional support.
My (va toxic?) cat has had occasional bare spots on his chin.
I have been meaning to comment on the re-feeding thing. I've always been interested in why dogs who have been through neglect and starvation end up with mangey skin and missing fur. The reason I started thinking about this was that rosacea is thought to be similar to mange in some ways. When I've asked experts about this they say: Their immune system has taken a hit.
I wonder if neglected/starving dogs are going through VA detox with not enough nutritional support.
My (va toxic?) cat has had occasional bare spots on his chin.
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