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Low homocysteine
Anyone else got very low homocysteine on a prolonged vA detox diet? I now think in some people the vA detox diet is actually a RE-tox diet and we are getting retinoic acid poisoning from toxicity that can’t exit our bodies. If we haven’t addressed all the blocks in our detoxification pathways (choline deficiency is one) then encouraging the liver to dump stored vA, by going very low vA, is not going to end well. And it hasn’t for me, and several others.
Two of us long term detoxers now have very low homocysteine. Less than 5 which is not good. Before the vA detox I was a perfect 7.
Just some additional info for those who are curious, I haven't spent much time looking into this.
"The risk of hypohomocysteinemia derives from the fact that homocysteine is the normal intermediate for conversion of methionine into cysteine, and thus for production of glutathione, taurine and sulfate. Individuals with low homocysteine have limited capacity for response to oxidative stress and certain kinds of toxin exposure. The most common treatment for low homocysteine is administration of sulfur-containing amino acids such as methionine, N-acetylcysteine and taurine. Preformed glutathione and inorganic sulfate salts (potassium sulfate) may also be employed. Plasma methionine and urinary sulfate, pyroglutamate or alpha-hydroxybutyrate are related tests that may be performed for confirmation of significant cysteine deficit."
Some good summaries here on both low and high results:
https://joannekennedy.com.au/2019/01/23/high-homocysteine-naturopath-sydney/
Ahh, this makes so much sense, @jaj!
(I had to read more about low homocysteine to understand: https://www.drbenlynch.com/low-homocysteine/)
My husband has been taking SAMe this year, and is finding it helpful... I was going to start a thread about SAMe, because it supports the liver and can improve bile flow:
https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/sadenosyllmethionine-same-in-depth
But addressing the low homocysteine would enable the body to increase production of SAMe itself, instead of relying on supplementation! Although, perhaps SAMe could be useful in the interim?
I hear from people who do appear to be stuck in a “RE-TOX” state, and this explanation may well apply to many, especially if they aren’t tolerating sulfur-containing foods and are therefore avoiding them, or if they struggle to digest protein.
ETA: I didn’t see @orion’s post before posting. That’s a helpful article. Thank you! I find myself taking a lot of taurine whenever I get sick... Interesting.
if not going very low VA and detoxing then one must be going higher in VA and retoxing.
seems like addressing the homocysteine levels by another route (than increasing VA consumption) is wiser.
have you looked into Discovery | The Nutrition Detective Network
“Low homocysteine levels do indeed have disease correlations. For example, low homocysteine has been shown to have a strong association with peripheral neuropathy. A surprising 41% of patients with idiopathic peripheral neuropathy have hypohomocysteinemia.”
- Dr. Joseph Pizzorno
From Homocysteine: Friend or Foe? available here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4566450/pdf/8-14.pdf
In the article Orion posted, Joanne Kennedy writes: “Taking too much methylfolate, methylB12 and Vitamin B6 in a homocysteine lowering supplement for too long [can cause homocysteine to drop too low]. I see this a lot in clinic, whereby a patient is either put on a homocysteine lowering supplement for too long, or without even having high homocysteine in the first place.”
Maybe some people who are dealing with neuropathy after taking excessive B6 have hypohomocysteinemia?
@joe can we make this forum a Smith free zone please. I listened to his nonsense for 3 years and it nearly killed me. (don’t mean to be rude but I’m so exasperated with Smith. He’s got so much dangerously wrong. I’m lucky to be alive).
Here we are trying to get to the real truth of the best way to solve vA toxicity. Going on a low vA diet does not work for 50% of people who try it (see Grant blog). They get better, then they get sicker, sometimes much sicker (like me). We need to understand why. Pretending people aren’t getting very sick doing the vA detox in it’s present form, is not going to make this problem go away. Perhaps sharing experiences and ideas will solve it. After much thought I no longer think going very low vA is safe for some people. It’s just my opinion after 4.5 years involvement in this project and listening to many experiences. It works for some and not for others. We need to know why. Choline and B vitamin deficiencies are probably involved for many.
Thanks @orion and @puddleduck for your helpful links and comments. I don’t know if ATRA is causing my low homocysteine or something else. I don’t avoid sulphur but suspect I’m low glutathione. I need to re-do my OAT test to see what the state of play is for glutathione, Bs etc. I suspect I’m in a real mess.
I’m becoming more and more convinced that the vA detox causes serious collateral damage in some. I’ve been badly hit. Why are some ok and some not? I’m talking to several people who are ill. They don’t post on here. But like me they are seriously ill after being on the vA detox diet. Something about all this is very wrong. I think that excess vA in body is very bad for health, but in some going very low vA actually makes this issue worse not better. A hard contradiction to get one’s head around but I suspect true for those with damaged detox pathways.
Edit: just to make it clear (not sure I have) I’m very much in favour of the idea that vA toxicity is very damaging for the body. However, I’m now seeing a low vA diet as a way (in some) of making this situation worse not better. When we go very low vA it’s apparent that we start detoxing stored vA from our livers quite aggressively. The retinyl esters (storage molecule) is converted into retinol bound to RBP and enters blood. It’s then processed to retinaldehyde and retinoic acid via ADH and ALDH respectively. The conversion to retinoic acid is irreversible. This is a very important point. Once retinoic acid is formed it can’t be stored in the liver, it can only be detoxified and leave the body. This detoxification involves phase 1 (CYP26), phase 2 (glucuronidation), phase 2.5 (requires PC) and phase 3 (elimination). If any of these are slow then we end up with retinoic acid trapped in our bodies. This is what I suspect is happening for some. Retinoic acid causes B vitamin deficiencies and other deficiencies. It’s the most toxic form of vA. If we have sluggish phase 1, 2, 2.5 or 3 then we may get into trouble on the vA detox. We need to sort out the detox pathways first.
@jaj Do you feel like you are still getting sicker? I am so sorry to read this.
I believe I am also teetering in this re-tox zone after almost 4 years of low A. I am trying to be so gentle now and not push anything too much... worrying is the worst and not always having a sense of what is going on inside the body can be stressful. I am convinced eggs/choline is crucial, as is proper breathing... I sense I am low in Bs too and protein, and zinc and taurine etc., yet everything seems to ramp things up. Right now I am trusting in the eggs to slowly rebuild as I can eat very little meat at any one time. I feel less delicate but I have lost weight again which is surprising, I can tell my liver is working hard, even though I have no pain... smaller meals do seem to help. Some good things are going on which I will soon update on a different thread, sorry to update here... but yeah, parts of me are still (literally) teetering too.
Sending everyone so much love.
If we have sluggish phase 1, 2, 2.5 or 3 then we may get into trouble on the vA detox. We need to sort out the detox pathways first.
I recently watched a webinar video called “The 3 Stages of Recovery in Fatigue Recovery,” which I found fairly accurate to my experiences, both during failed and successful dietary healing experiments, thus far (you have to provide your email address to access it):
https://www.therapeuticnutrition.com/
Basically, the practitioners noticed that introducing detox protocols too early in the recovery process was harmful, however after allowing a patient time to rest and nourish his or her body, the patient was able to become strong enough to tolerate the detox.
Different healing stages presented different challenges and symptoms, which the clinic ultimately categorized into three main stages:
Stage 1 - Deep Rest
Stage 2 - Tired & Wired
Stage 3 - Reintegration
I wonder if what we’re calling the “detox setback” is the result of pushing into a strong detox phase, before adequate nutritional restoration and rest has occurred in preparation?
I went through an extensive period of rest and high-caloric intake (four years of it) during recovery from anorexia before starting this detox, during which time I was consuming eggs and cream and oatmeal and meats and beans and grain and butter in great quantity. This preparation may have been protective in my case.
Pretending people aren’t getting very sick doing the vA detox in it’s present form, is not going to make this problem go away. Perhaps sharing experiences and ideas will solve it. After much thought I no longer think going very low vA is safe for some people. It’s just my opinion after 4.5 years involvement in this project and listening to many experiences. It works for some and not for others. We need to know why. Choline and B vitamin deficiencies are probably involved for many.
I’m pretty sure I remember Matt Stone saying he was seeing huge improvements in his health (his asthma cleared up) even though he was eating pizza and whatever every weekend, but keeping low VA during the week. He was also not concerned about eating “clean” or “whole foods” only.
From talking with others on the detox, I notice those who are the most “strict” tend to struggle the most with the re-tox setback (perhaps because they are in worse health to begin with, they are more motivated to do so, or because their bodies react much more badly to dairy or whatever other foods than those who are less ill, which was the case for myself as well), while the “cheaters” seem to be faring better.
Could there be some benefit to cycling periods of moderate intake of vitamin A? Or is this extreme sensitivity to high vitamin A foods indicative of being in a different phase of healing than those who are less sensitive? Could different intakes of vitamin A and certain supplements be more helpful in one stage versus another?
I’ve still never gotten a satisfactory answer for why I can take loads of lactoferrin without any negative symptoms, while so many following Dr. Smith’s program became quite sick from small amounts. What does that mean?
There are, from time to time, people who pop in here to report they’ve returned to eating a “normal” diet with moderate vitamin A intake, and doing much better than they were when restricting. What can we learn from them?
I agree with Jenny; it is imperative to stay open-minded and keep asking questions.
Have you used activated charcoal?