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Niacin flush from food
Has anyone else experienced the symptoms of niacin flush just from food?
I've been consuming broth from boiled meat bones and carcasses for years without any problem, but late last year I started getting a weird flushing sensation in my face and a general feeling of weakness, lightheadedness, and fatigue/sleepiness after drinking animal broths. I was really confused about it and wondering if I was developing a histamine response or sensitivity to other amines. In the past month, I have been getting that sensation just from meat broth (no bones), after boiling a roast cut of beef, for example. I think I even got it from eating a ton of steak at one time.
Yesterday, the obvious answer finally popped in mind...the vitamins in broth are likely digested and absorbed much faster than from intact meat, which is how I could get the sensation from drinking broth from an arm roast along with the meat, but not get the sensation from eating the same arm roast that was dry-cooked.
It sounds like niacin flushes from small amounts of niacin indicate deficiency, does anyone here have confirmatory information on that?
It also looks like alcoholism is a primary culprit in cases of niacin deficiency, as it is with thiamine deficiency, and probably many other deficiencies. I think most of us are already aware of the similarities between states of alcoholism and Vitamin A toxicity, but for me this was yet one more Aha! moment, as well as an I'll-be-damned moment, because it seems crazy to be niacin deficient on a diet like mine that has been nearly 100% meat from mammals for 17 months.
It's possible that I reached a state of notable deficiency only after trying a variety of supplements that, when out of balance with my niacin intake, led to a relative niacin deficiency, in which case I would offer another word of caution about supplements potentially doing more harm than good. If I had to guess which supplements were responsible, I would say it was most likely thiamine and/or zinc, based on the degree of symptoms I got shortly after taking those things.
Thiamin depletes B2. B2 required to activate B6. B6 is required for one of the main pathways (from tryptophan) that produces NAD. When I take too much thiamin I get B2 deficiency symptoms. The links between the Bs are complex. I’m just supplementing a low dose B multi at the moment.
Intuitively I don't believe that taking one vitamin B may cause a deficiency of another. Something (else) is wrong in this kingdom of crooked mirrors, imho.
I think it’s fairly well documented that supplementing one B can deplete another. I have numerous anecdotal stories of this happening in myself and others. I have NO wish to debate this. However, I couldn’t let such an inaccurate suggestion stand without comment. I would rather focus on progressing knowledge, not debate something that is already known. Let’s not re-invent the wheel.
I think your flushing probably has nothing to do with niacin but it should be easy to test for you if you take a small dose of niacin, similair to the amount you would get from a meaty meal, like 5-20mg, and see if you get the flush.
By the way the b-vitamins are heat sensitive so if you boil broths it would actually lower the b3 content of the meat.
Do you have any alternatives to suggest for the symptoms? They fit the description of niacin flush almost to a T (the only thing that is absent is visual redness of the skin) and happen when eating foods that are among the highest in niacin. I'm having another episode right now that started while eating baked salmon and baked rabbit. The symptoms vary in degree of severity each time it happens. The only other alternative explanation I can think of would be related to histamines, but I have no other obvious signs of a histamine response that you might expect.
Another thing to note is that tryptophan gets converted to niacin, so eating a lot of meat could contribute to niacin intake via that pathway as well.
I'll consider trying to confirm it with a niacin supplement like you suggested, but I'm pretty convinced at the moment considering the lack of alternative explanations.
I get a flushing reaction to high sulphur foods. However, meat is the least likely one to cause this as it’s not in thiol form in meat, I believe. However, occasionally people have a problem with the sulphur in meat, according to Greg Nigh.
I do think that the vA detox could deplete niacin, as NAD is a co factor for important enzymes (ADH, ALDH). I also think that vA detox can deplete vitamin B6 (particularly in susceptible people) and lack of B6 can slow NAD being produced from tryptophan, as these enzymes use P5P as a cofactor. Therefore, for these, and probably others reasons I don’t know, I think it’s quite possible for some people to end up with low niacin/NAD while detoxing vitamin A.
I finally got some Niacin (nicotinic acid) to test for the flushing sensation. I didn't notice anything until I got up to about 250 mg (half of a standard 500 mg capsule), and then it happened on my face. Wow, that's pretty uncomfortable!
The sensation is a bit different from the one I've been getting from broth and meat. The Niacin flush from the supplement feels like it's all on the surface of the skin and concentrated around my upper cheeks and forehead, and it's quite visible as skin redness, whereas the other sensation I get from food feels like it's deeper in my sinuses and going into my brain and not really visible on the skin. The sensation from food is more of a pleasant buzz, whereas the flush from the supplement is more of an uncomfortable hot sensation. Weird stuff...
I think I might have identified the cause of the flushing sensation that I'm getting from something aside from niacin.
I believe it's from potassium.
I've been supplementing with potassium off and on for quite a while and never noticed this sensation after taking it, but lately I've been getting the flushing sensation shortly after taking supplements first thing in the morning, which often includes up to 350 mg of potassium chloride. There's certainly a good amount of potassium in the meat broth that gives me the same sensation, whereas there's probably not much of it in bone broth, which does not seem to give me the sensation.
Now the question is, why am I getting this sensation from potassium when I didn't used to? Is this any indication that I am low in potassium? It seems like the physiological mechanism is probably similar to what causes niacin flushing, which is the vasodilation and increased blood flow.
I should add that this sensation only seems to happen early in the day with the first significant intake of potassium. I often take 350 mg of potassium chloride before breakfast, between breakfast and lunch, and then before bed, but I don't think I've ever gotten the sensation with the second or third round of potassium for the day. Similarly, I am most likely to get the sensation from food if it's the first thing I eat/drink in the day.
Any ideas?