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Question for Grant + forum
Hi guys,
I was thinking lately, given that Grant’s serum vitamin A is extremely low, and has been this low for many years now, it would be safe to say that he no longer would have a chronic form of hypervitaminosis A- right?
Because of this, surely if Grant began to reintroduce vit A, he wouldn’t have any issues right?
If he were to have any issues, would this disprove the theory?
@ggenereux2014 do you have any thoughts about this?
Hi @tommy,
I think it’s important to understand that removing excess vA from serum is just a starting point. Even if we could remove all the vA (and that in the RBPs too) from serum that just then prevents additional toxicity harms. However, people can still have a very large number of cells that have their DNA already damaged from RA. Most of those cells are going to be producing defective proteins for the remainder of their lives. Therefore, even long after we’ve eliminated vA from serum we can continue to experience adverse health issues.
The covid hysteria has finally started to calm down here in Canada. I’ll try to get an update vA serum level test in the next 3-4 months..
It is highly unlikely that Grant has Vitamin A toxicity with serum values as low as they are, with his intentional avoidance of Vitamin A in foods, and with his regular consumption of meat (protein). Without a close look at his liver (e.g. biopsy), we do not know how much he has stored in his liver though.
My understanding is that Grant's primary hypothesis is that Vitamin A is not a nutrient, but rather represents a toxin to the body in any amount. He is attempting to solidify this notion by avoiding Vitamin A intake and monitoring his serum values. If he were to reintroduce Vitamin A and not experience any symptoms, it would not disprove his hypothesis because we all know the body can store significant quantities of Vitamin A without showing symptoms.
If, however, he were to experience sustained symptoms of Vitamin A deficiency in combination with low serum values, that would go a long way toward disproving his hypothesis.
On the flip side, to prove his hypothesis, he would need serum values below the detectable range, liver biopsy showing no stored Vitamin A, and proof that he is not absorbing and utilizing Vitamin A from the food he eats (primarily coming from the meat in his diet). The fact that he has maintained his health with low serum values is compelling, but does not prove anything in itself.
I think what he has helped make clear is that, under particular circumstances (e.g. older male living at higher northern latitudes spending much time inside buildings away from sunlight), you do not need anywhere near as much Vitamin A as has been recommended by various agencies. The power of his n=1 self-experiment stops there though...you cannot extrapolate his experience to anyone else due to absence of controlled variables, you can't even extrapolate it to his own self before he started this trial.
@wavygravygadzooks "I think what he has helped make clear is that, under particular circumstances (e.g. older male living at higher northern latitudes spending much time inside buildings away from sunlight), you do not need anywhere near as much Vitamin A as has been recommended by various agencies. The power of his n=1 self-experiment stops there though...you cannot extrapolate his experience to anyone else due to absence of controlled variables, you can't even extrapolate it to his own self before he started this trial."
I agree 100%.. I say it again Grant wasn't even on high vit A diet before he started with this idea.. Wasn't even taking vit A supplements or accutane.. I don't think vit A was the main reason why he had kidney or skin issues. Because if was people who eat liver, egg yolks, dairy fat etc.. would be dead after a year on diet like that. But they are not..
Quote from Arena on October 26, 2022, 1:01 pm@jiri What was Grants diet before he started with this idea? I mean, since he was in his 30s for example? Since he is substantially older than you, might he not have accumulated a lot of vitamin A over the years?
I've seen these comments about Grants diet being thrown around several times now, and how he could not have had VA toxicity, and I'm just curious if it is substantiated at all, or just speculation from your (and others) side.
He talked about his diet in some podcasts. I don't remember exactly what he was saying but I do remember that I was like "wow that is just normal diet with no excess of animal/plant foods high in vit A and no supplements.. "
My case is completely different. I started taking accutane on top of really bad diet(Deficient in zinc, B vitamins etc.. I was hypothyroid like crazy was taking also synthetic T4) After that I started with bodybuilding. So I was taking zinc, B vitamins etc.. but also there was retinol in multivitamin like animal pack which I was taking.. I was taking also liver pills from universal. It was very popular in bodybuilding in 90s/2000s... + 4-6 eggs daily.. This bodybuilding period was better than before when I had really bad diet and was on accutane, but when I stopped with bodybuidling I started with this "health" thing so I started eating like Weston Price followers. So cod liver oil, retinol pills, grass fed full fat dairy, whole eggs, cheeses, liver. I mean insane amounts of retinol for like one year after that Ray Peat diet. So still liver, eggs, dairy, but also more sugar(fatty liver) after that Morley Robbins even more liver but now no vit D supplements.. At that point I was walking death. Crazy health issues especially crazy sun sensitivity. Fortunately at that point I was reading https://180degreehealth.com/vitamin-depletion-discussion-dr-garrett-smith/ again. I was reading it before, but I was like this is crazy vit A as toxin lol.. But when I looked into it more I started cold turkey with beef rice diet and the rest is history heh.. So no my case is completely different than Grants.. I was textbook case of chronic vit A toxicity.. I am only 36 yo, but I ingested within 5-6 years more vit A than Grant couldn't ingest during his whole life..
Apart from a person's age and accumulation over the years, I am surprised that nobody mentions that there could be an accumulation over generations.
As though we lived in a kind of fairy land where there is no inherited material. A tendency to believe that if you take the right supplements there will be no consequences. If liberation were that easy nobody would be in Hell!
@ggenereux2014 Grant can you pls tell us what was your diet like your whole life or if you took any meds/supplements? Thx..
Quote from Ourania on October 27, 2022, 11:13 pmApart from a person's age and accumulation over the years, I am surprised that nobody mentions that there could be an accumulation over generations.
As though we lived in a kind of fairy land where there is no inherited material....
Yah! So true. And I would not be surprised if there are also inherited tendencies toward needing less VA.
Quote from ggenereux on October 25, 2022, 10:51 amHowever, people can still have a very large number of cells that have their DNA already damaged from RA. Most of those cells are going to be producing defective proteins for the remainder of their lives. Therefore, even long after we’ve eliminated vA from serum we can continue to experience adverse health issues.
I think you should really look into fasting. It might be just the thing to fix broken dna. Apparently its the only way to achieve autophagy and probably something else that western medicine likes to ignore. It might fix or replace all the broken dna, who knows
Hi @jiri,
I wrote about my diet in my ETFOH ebook. Basically, until about 2005 I was eating a very standard North American diet. Around that time my dentist diagnosed me with significantly receding gums. In an attempt to counteract that I started to drink a LOT of milk. Unfortunately, here in Canada the milk is “fortified” with both vA and vD.
Way back in my early 20s I had also taken a vA supplement for a while. A friend of mine had convinced me it was a good idea. Fortunately, I only did that for a few months. Anyways, I’m sure that contributed to my near demise 35 years later in 2014.
The only meds I’ve ever taken are some antibiotics ( ~ 2x in my life). And the standard childhood vaccines that were given in the 1960s.