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Rapid Gum Recession
Yup, it is indeed a very high zinc:copper ratio! For a while, I was concerned about becoming copper deficient, so in addition to trying to eat heart regularly, I tried supplementing a tiny amount of copper...but it made me feel very weird and I quickly stopped. It seems like there are hardly any reliable lab tests out there, so I've all but given up on using them to assess nutrient status. Testing out supplements carefully seems to be offering some insight.
Before I went low VA, I had been eating liver pretty regularly, and liver has an insane amount of copper in it. I have no idea if I became "copper toxic" from that, or if my storage pools of copper might still be too high, but based on my symptoms it certainly seems like I'm borderline deficient in zinc despite all the meat I eat, which makes me think I probably don't have to worry about too little copper for the moment. Not to mention all the longer term carnivore dieters who seem just fine with the ratio of zinc:copper in muscle meat. It seems like liver delivers a double punch to your zinc levels by supplying huge amounts of both Vitamin A and copper.
True, good point.
Interesting. Perhaps you should think about the fact that you may have (zink) malabsorption. I don't think that the processes of VA detox consume so much zinc
I don't really have signs of any kind of malabsorption aside from diarrhea. My weight has been dead stable ever since I started a low VA diet a year ago, my energy levels have been relatively consistent, and I haven't gotten sick once. The main thing that's changed is I've had dry skin and dry mucous membrane problems appearing all around my body at different times since going low VA. Some of them heal, then new ones pop up elsewhere. From what I've read, zinc is involved in the transport of Vitamin A and zinc status is correlated with RBP status. So, while I haven't come across descriptions of the exact mechanisms, it seems pretty clear that Vitamin A and zinc are strongly linked, and my symptoms that indicate localized zinc deficiency all worsened or began only after starting to seriously detox Vitamin A.
Getting yellow in your stool regularly seems to me like the most clear indication you're actually working through a Vitamin A toxicity. I've yet to hear any other good reason for a large amount of yellow liquid in stool. Not that you have to have yellow in your stool to be Vitamin A toxic, but it seems like a pretty good indicator, and if you've never noticed it after being on a low VA diet for a while, it seems like you're either not getting the Vitamin A out or you don't actually have Vitamin A toxicity. Various forms of dry skin, dry mucus membranes, and dry nail problems also seem nearly guaranteed in chronic Vitamin A toxicity, and they all seem to be linked to zinc deficiency as well.
Was it Grant that hypothesized that vegans/vegetarians have a harder time with Vitamin A detox than heavy meat-eaters? One of the rationales would be that they have a history of low zinc and high copper consumption.
So, I've been supplementing with 30 mg of zinc each day (on top of consuming 2-3 pounds of red meat) for the past couple weeks and it has dramatically improved my gum pain/sensitivity and the burning sensation on the roof of my mouth. I think it's probably also improving dry skin problems elsewhere on my body.
However, my gums have not recovered from the rapid recession. I'm trying to incorporate more Vitamin C from fruit in case I need that in addition to zinc to regenerate the tissue.
This experience has been pretty eye opening. I did not think it was possible to be zinc deficient on a relatively lean carnivore diet, but Vitamin A toxicity seems to be a serious drain on zinc stores, and supplementing with B vitamins (particularly thiamine) seems to have exacerbated that problem for me. I now suspect that all of my dry skin problems are related to zinc deficiency, which generally seems to have worsened ever since starting a low Vitamin A diet a year ago. To be clear, though, I have not tested for levels of zinc, my conclusions here are drawn from dietary experimentation.
Interesting @wavygravygadzooks. I’ve heard several people say that they are finding zinc supplements extremely useful. As you say the vA detox really seems to really drain the zinc. I’ve been supplementing zinc since 2015 (for pyroluria and then for vA detox) but I suspect I may need more as my last hair test indicated a drop. I’m always a bit wary as zinc can mobilise copper and create anxiety.
Me too... I have been doing the low vitamin A for nearly 17 months now. In that time I have been eating beef most days, and often twice a day. I also have taken a 50 mg (elemental amount) capsule of zinc citrate every day. At the end of August last year, a HTMA showed my zinc level as 150 ppm on a reference level of 130 - 200. December last year my level was 180. This year I expected to have to reduce my zinc supplementation, but a HTMA on 14th August showed a level of 140. So for me, vit A detoxification uses up huge amounts of zinc (as well as some other minerals and vitamins). A 50 mg capsule of zinc citrate is 455% of the RDA, on top of the red meat I eat. @wavygravygadzooks, I've been doing HTMA 2 or more times a year for the last 18 years. I would recommend doing HTMA on an ongoing basis, rather than guessing what minerals you might be needing and what toxic elements you might be suffering from.
It seems to me that you can't use zinc because of hypothyroidism, or because of iron toxicity, or you have malabsorption. It's crazy amounts of zinc.
I hate getting into debates on the forum, so I just want to post info, and want it to be looked at objectively and if you don't agree you keep doing what youre doing. I personally have done HMTA and had very bad results and only felt better after stopping all supplements. But ask yourself this question, is this actually an accurate test, can I find science to validate it?
"For most elements, no correlation has been established between hair level and other known indicators of nutrition status. It is possible for hair concentration of an element (zinc, for example) to be high even though deficiency exists in the body."
If that's true then the inverse is true, you could be creating a copper deficiency.
I don't entirely agree with this next quote, but you should be cautious about supplementing 50 mg/day that's a lot.
"The tolerable upper limit of zinc – around 40 mg/day – refers to the maximum you should consume regardless of whether it is from food, fortified foods, supplements, or even water. Consuming zinc from food itself poses no major problem or side effects because you won’t usually have more than this upper limit in a normal diet. But when you end up having too much overall from supplements as well as food or a combination of both, it could suppress the immune response, adversely impact cholesterol levels, lower copper in the body, or lead to other side effects just described."
I had a blood test after a few months on carnivore (A LOT of red meat). And I was low in zinc!