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Rapid Gum Recession
Oh and finally, hypertriglyceridemia is a proven side effect of RA to the point that anyone on accutane will have their lipids monitored. If the lipid profile deteriorates enough, the derm will abort the prescription. At this point, we are definitely well past the point of speculation on if RA increases triglycerides.
Yes, coconut contains antimicrobials, but a lot of them are in the oil component and I never had problems eating coconut oil, although I haven't had much coconut oil since going low VA. Also, I'm saying there was a slight increase in diarrhea severity after consuming coconut...small compared to the constant background levels of diarrhea happening over the entire period of being low VA.
I'm not arguing that retinoic acid doesn't increase triglycerides (I haven't read enough to argue that point either way). I'm just saying that if arginine reduces triglyceride levels by some means other than depleting retinoic acid, then it's really not addressing the root of the problem, although it may still be beneficial if the reduction in triglyceride levels has noticeable health benefits in itself.
I always have high hopes of replying to various threads, and at the risk of repetitively posting things, I did summarize a few thoughts on Covid/herpes/gums/recovery, plus some links that others have posted, here: https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/our-family-behavioral-outburts-acne-urinary-problems-hormones-oh-my/?part=6
Thanks for sharing!
My gums continue to deteriorate, it's getting scary bad now. Within a month, I went from fairly annoying level recession to more like imminently needing grafting surgery or something to fix it.
My latest suspicions are this:
(1) The recession is primarily a result of Vitamin A being liberated from the tissues around the mouth. It seems to worsen with fiber intake, which would make sense if fiber is binding to bile acids in the gut, causing my body to release even more bile acids (along with everything else in bile like extra Vitamin A) in order to fully digest the fats I'm eating, which then encourages the liberation of more Vitamin A from mouth tissues.
(2) Some form of herpes is likely co-occurring and being encouraged by the damage to the tissues in the mouth from Vitamin A being liberated. The strange thing is, I haven't been getting cold sores. But my gums are sometimes quite inflamed, and I've seen little white dots here and there that could be related to herpes infection.
What led me to these tentative conclusions is my attempts to add white rice and fiber into an otherwise mostly carnivore diet that's pretty low in fat. I didn't have too many gum problems for the first year on my low Vitamin A diet, during which time I was almost entirely carnivore. When I introduced white rice, I don't remember immediately having worsening gum problems. When I really noticed it was when I ate shredded coconut. I stopped eating coconut, continued eating white rice, and tried introducing psyllium husk for like the 10th time. I seemed to have a constant, low level gum inflammation with that combination that wouldn't go away. Then I tried adding boiled parsnip, and that seemed to make things noticeably worse. A little avocado also seemed to make it worse. I even suspect ginger tea might be making it worse.
The common thread I think I'm seeing is that the more bile I'm putting out, the worse my symptoms get. I've tried supplementing lysine and zinc, but they don't seem to make an obvious difference. I've pretty much only found relief by going back to a low fat carnivore diet.
I was willing to push the limits when detox was mainly messing with my skin, but I can't compromise my gums anymore than I have already, so it seems like I need to find a way to put the brakes on the detox and hopefully give my body time to heal the damaged tissues as the Vitamin A is coming out of them. For me, it seems like even small amounts of fat consumed alongside small amounts of fiber causes major problems, and I really don't like the idea of going zero fat while keeping fiber in the diet, so my compromise for now is going back to lean carnivore until something changes. Not the ideal diet for energy, but I don't know what else to do.
I recently had the thought that we might need some kind of bacterial metabolite. Malt is a product of fermentation of bacteria. Coconut oil has an antibacterial effect. And if you mix it with fiber, it will go far and kill all the bacteria. If we add citrus fruits, cabbage, potatoes, we will have fiber. If you eat a lot of salty meat, you will kill all the bacteria. Probably, we can even look for the antibacterial spectrum of coconut oil and understand what we need.
Vitamin K2 mk4 improved my gums a lot when I was having problems with them on the Ray Peat diet, might be worth giving it a shot although I don't think VK2 is a good thing to take in the long run
I was thinking about gum recession after reading a few of the latest posts here. Gingivitis is definitely one of my challenges. Here are my loose thoughts on the subject. Remember these are thoughts from someone in the trenches, not someone who is on the other side!
I think that, as Wavy said above, this has to do with the VA content in the teeth (especially) and gums and its subsequent detox. I also think that the VA and it's detox leaves behind a rough surface that makes it hard for the gum to re-attach.
I think that in the 2.5 years that I've been lowered-VA my teeth have been slowly getting less yellow. Especially from the top of the tooth down toward the gum (unfortunately) And some of my gums are getting whiter (rather than red/inflamed). I think that my gums are the most unhappy where the teeth are still the yellow-ist at the base.
So, I think that anything that helps detox the teeth and promotes gentle surface smoothing and rebuilding is going to help. I think many things are available to help and you can probably mix it up.
Of course there are toothpastes and soaps that break down VA's and we *could* be (gently) brushing after every meal, right? I'm assuming that no diet is VA free and this might help with daily exposure.
There are gritty particles like baking soda and gritty tooth pastes.
Scrubbing with brushes both mechanical and non, Flossing, and also I've seen a technique of using a brush to tap rather than brush. I suppose we need to get into these yellow areas particularly. They are often hard to get at.
Bubbles like seltzer, hydrogen peroxide. (the old-fashioned word for selzer is "tonic" you know, meaning "something that tones". I have often felt that seltzer or anything with harsh bubbles like new beer detoxes my gut) I'm betting this is one of the reasons Tim's tooth method works. The scrubbing bubbles!
Swishing hard and long with warm water, toothpaste and water, oil pulling (for more than just a few seconds!)
As for rebuilding teeth, I can see that Kurtis has a good point about making sure to have some vitamin K in the diet. Unlike VA, VK can be a bit harder to get. I remember Matt Stone talking about how raw milk helped teeth problems for him. I have a real taste for raw milk and I also have a taste for cheese. I also allow hubs and I to eat an egg a day if we want it. Minerals might be needed.
I've always wondered why cleanliness and abrasion would help with tooth and gum problems. Perhaps VA is why. It's not an overnight fix. But over time it adds up.
I have also been experimenting with putting a little zinc supplement on my tongue and targeting it toward the problem areas. (I think it does help, but I wouldn't do it more than once per day, it's somewhat irritating)
I've added selzer and (not necessarily at the same time) lime/lemon to my diet. Lime and Lemon are also, IMO, detoxifiers.
Be careful with flossing, I went too rough with it and did chip an "in danger" tooth. I actually don't floss every day but every few days. I think flossing is intrusive and easy to harm yourself, but helpful.
I don't know why oil pulling hasn't stuck with me, it seems logical. I want to blame the fact that it moves things around but is hard to clean up from after? Maybe the hard-to-reach pockets aren't actually getting enough pull or enough after-cleanse.
Peroxide ends up making my mouth sore, maybe seltzer is a substitution for this that is less caustic?
I personally have to go very gently. My mouth gets sore very easily, and that is probably counter-productive.
As long as a tooth is hanging in there I believe, As Weston Price did, that teeth can rebuild. I believe gums can too.
Please forgive me if I'm late to the party and you've already discussed this, but tonight I thought I'd look up vitamin K as somebody said it could be useful for gum recession/herpes. I found this: https://hardingmedicalinstitute.com/cold-sore-cure-why-calcium-and-vitamin-f-are-essential-for-natural-prevention-and-treatment-for-herpes/
They are obviously trying to sell things, but I wonder how plausible their rationale is for recommending several supps: vitamin D, vitamin A, polyunsaturated fatty acids (EPA/DHA), and vitamins K1/K2. Ironically, despite recommending vitamin D supplements, they say that too much vitamin D or sunshine can lead to herpes outbreaks because it throws off the calcium levels in the skin particularly. And so the supps are supposedly balancing things so that the body can utilize calcium properly.
Is it bad to take fish oil, from a vitamin A detox perspective? For EPA and DHA? I am tempted to try this, plus vitamin K. While not as bad as yours, @wavygravygadzooks, my very unpleasant herpes mouth situation (that interestingly worsened I THOUGHT due to Covid, but possibly because I took a gigantic dose of vitamin D at the onset of Covid...)...is unpleasant right now. As it also is for some of my kids. 🙁
We reach for lysine for cold sores.
I think that canker sores (internal to the mouth, and often in a spot that got damaged) can be a different thing than cold sores. I've always thought that canker sores happened to me after an acute stress (for instance a sickness or a breakup).
Perhaps now looking back what I needed to counter a heap o'stress was probably a B spectrum capsule and a B12 supp. In normal life I probably get enough B's from food, but if a big stressor comes along I need to supp, even if just for one day, and whew. What a difference.
Possibly there are other things that are needed to counter a stress event as well. (VC?) But to me cankers say to me that my body and immune system is stressed, under the weather so to speak.
I don't think I'd dabble in fish oil, but that is just me. But you could eat oily fish, then you'd get oils and iodine and minerals and all that.
My family also had covid, besides lasting forever, even with the ones that had it milder, lingering effects still remain. For two of us it activated herpes too, ( none of us supplemented Vit. D.) that still painfully lingers (we got sick at the end of September.) (We've been low Vit. A since Dec of 2019-younger kids too lowish A)
Anyway with the other discussion about Lactoferrin I was looking into it and there were several articles about it inhibiting Herpes complex-actually it's a peptide that derives from it, it seems. I can't link anything for some reason, but thought it might be of interest. Lysine never really helps me, so always looking for something that does. Interesting about Vit. K though, when I lived off supplements, lol I took lots of K. I didn't have a breakout back then now that I think about it. Maybe something there too?
Hopefully something pans out for both of us, not fun! Maybe something there form the gum recession too if it's all related?
Jonette