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Scurvy
My own experience of huge relief in symptoms from vitamin C has led me to search for scurvy and hypervitaminoses A in the literature.
https://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4833&context=rtd
Rodahl (1949) found in detailed studies of prolonged administration of vitamin A excess to rats, mice,guinea pigs, rabbits, dogs, and chickens that symptoms resembling those of scurvy often developed. In addition, microscopic examination of teeth indicated disarrangements of theodontoblasts and amorphous calcification of the inner dentineas well as deposits of calcium in the pulp.
...Vedder and Rosenberg (1938) completely prevented the toxic effects of 100,000 lU of vitamin A from jewfish oil by administering 5 mg of ascorbic acid to rats. With toxicity due to a crystalline vitamin A source, Moore and Wang (19^5) found some of their rats to exhibit symptoms resembling those of scurvy described in other species. The toxicity of the jew fish liver oil was not counteracted at all by giving vitamin B1: it was partly counteracted by administering very large doses of vitamin D and almost completely by giving 5 mg. daily of ascorbic acid.-K. H. Coward.
Eodahl (19^9) also reported the similarities of some aspects of vitamin A toxicity and scurvy in the long bones of rats which they had examined microscopically. In most of these animals, there was abnormally low ascorbic acid concentration in serum, adrenals, and liver, but ascorbic acid deficiency was not considered to be the sole causative factor of vitamin A toxicity.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S000398615280013X?via%3Dihub
The concentration of ascorbic acid in the livers of rats which had been deprived of vitamin A until growth ceased did not differ appreciably from that found in the livers of normal rats. However, hypervitaminosis A was found to affect both the amount and concentration of hepatic ascorbic acid. Concentration of ascorbic acid in the livers of rats fed massive doses of vitamin A (20,000–80,000 units daily), became progressively lower as the dosage increased. When the daily dosage was 60,000 units, this decrease in ascorbic acid was detectable after only 7 days of supplementary feeding.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1600-0773.1951.tb02877.x
taken from the last link
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In the condition of hypervitaminosis A the liver and the serum had a very low ascorbic acid content. Large doses of vitamin C did not give any significant protection against the injurious effects of massive doses of vitamin A although the enlargement of the adrenals was prevented. However vitamin C had a beneficial effect against moderate excess of vitamin A. A great similarity exists between the symptoms of hypervitaminosis A as described above and the symptoms of scurvy. The complex clinical picture of hypervitaminosis A indicates an interrelation between vitamin A and vitamin C.
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Thanks for the interesting links. How much vitamin C do you need to feel better jobo?
I take 4 or 5 vitamin C tablets in a day and each of them is 500mg. There are a lot of excipients in the tablets so i'm going to try source pure sodium ascorbate powder and see how that goes...
The biggest relief has been the hayfever symptoms like sneezing and runny nose which indicates a problem with histamine which is raised by VA, and VA depletes vitamin C which further compounds the issue. High levels of calcium also seem to be involved in this.... Vitamin C seems to be required to degrade histamine and is considered an antihistamine.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299989906523
Histamine release from rat peritoneal mast cells induced by anti-IgE was potentiated by the retinoids: retinoic acid 2–10 μM and retinal 1–5 μM. Retinal also produced a concentration-dependent increase in anti-IgE-stimulated 45Ca uptake by these mast cells. A similar potentiating action of both retinoids was observed on histamine release induced by 12-O-tetradecanoylphorbol-13-acetate (TPA). For both anti-IgE- and TPA-induced histamine release, the potentiating effect of the two retinoids was only observed in the presence of extracellular calcium. In contrast, histamine release induced by compound 48/80 was inhibited by retinal 1–5 μM and by retinoic acid 10–50 μM and the inhibition was the same in the presence as in the absence of extracellular calcium 1 mM. Histamine release induced by calcium and the calcium ionophore A 23187 was inhibited by retinoid acid 2–10 μM and by retinal 10 μM. Inhibitions of compound 48/80-induced histamine release by cromoglycate and by retinal were additive. It is concluded that while the actions of retinoids on rat peritoneal mast cells are consistent with the inhibition of protein kinase C, another action of these compounds, unrelated to this enzyme, may explain the data.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8951736
OBJECTIVE:
The purpose of this study was to determine whether carnitine metabolism or histamine degradation would be useful parameters for investigating the optimal requirement for vitamin C.
METHODS:
Twenty-two non-scorbutic subjects with subnormal vitamin C status (plasma vitamin C < 28 mumol/L) were placed on a metabolic diet low in vitamin C for 3 weeks and repleted with graded doses of vitamin C: 10, 30 and 60 mg vitamin C daily (group 1) or 10,125 and 250 mg vitamin C daily (group 2) for weeks 1, 2 and 3, respectively. Fasting blood samples were collected weekly and analyzed for plasma vitamin C, plasma free carnitine and blood histamine.
RESULTS:
Group 1 subjects remained in a subnormal vitamin C state throughout the 3-week study, and blood histamine and plasma free carnitine were not impacted by the experimental treatment. Plasma vitamin C in group 2 subjects rose significantly during the study, and these subjects finished the study with an ample vitamin C status indicative of vitamin C intakes above the recommended dietary allowance. Both blood histamine and plasma free carnitine were inversely related to vitamin C status in group 2 subjects.
CONCLUSIONS:
These data indicate that blood histamine and plasma free carnitine are altered in individuals with subnormal, non-scorbutic vitamin C status and provide evidence that metabolic changes independent of collagen metabolism occur prior to the manifestation of scurvy. Thus utilizing scurvy as an end-point to determine vitamin C requirements may not provide adequate vitamin C to promote optimal health and well-being.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007%2F978-1-4613-0325-1_10#page-1
https://healinghistamine.com/vitamin-c-natures-best-antihistamine-for-histamine-intolerance/
Orthomolecular Facebook group.
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Bowel tolerance and a Vitamin C flush are not the same thing. Bowel tolerance is the dosage of vitamin C that causes gas but not yet loose bowel movements. A flush is taking enough Vitamin C to get loose bowel movements and clean the digestive tract. The Vitamin C flush is superior to a colonic. When you do a Vitamin C flush you are able to eliminate excess hormones, heavy metals, parasites, bad bacteria, and other toxins quite easily and efficiently so that they do not recirculate into the blood stream. Our friendly gut flora ferments Vitamin C creating the perfect environment for a healthy gut.
A super flush is going past the regular flush to produce watery stools. This super flush is recommended for parasites.
Bowel tolerance is the amount of Vitamin C that one wants to take throughout the entire day. By keeping a steady flow of Vitamin C into our body we are able to create high electron flow and prevent subclinical scurvy. Disease cannot exist in a body with high electron flow. As Dr. Thomas Levy says, "Vitamin C is the Primal Panacea.”
How to get started with C when NOT sick:
1. Acquire high-quality ascorbic acid in capsule, tablet or powder form. See below for recommendations
2. Day 1-3: take 1000 mg every 4 hours, getting in 4000 mg your first day. For some people, they may never need to exceed this dose, but for most, it will be a starting point
3. Day4-7: take 2000 mg every 4 hours, getting in 8000 mg.
4. Day8-11: take 3000 mg every 4 hours, getting in 12000 mg.
5. Day12-14: take 4000 mg every 4 hours, getting in 16,000 mg
*some people may need to start with 500 mg.
* this is a suggested schedule only, your body may do fine ramping up faster or may need to go slower.
*Please note that ¼ teaspoon of a pure power=1000 mg. there is nothing wrong with using capsules or tablets but powders have the least fillers.
The goal of the above ramp-up is to find your bowel tolerance. This is the dose where you start to feel gas and rumbling, which occurs at the maximum point at which your body can absorb C orally. This is a gentle and simple way to get started with C and achieves the main goal, which is to get blood levels as high as possible, which is when healing can occur. Please master the above first before moving on to flushing with C, which is a powerful detox strategy and remedy for many GI complaints.
How to do a Vitamin C Flush
When to do a flush:
*When you suffer from digestive issues
*After illness
*When you are having less than one bowel movement per day
*After giving birth
*To flush out toxins
Adult Flush
Take 3-5 grams of ascorbic acid every 15 minutes until you experience rumbling or gas. Stop and wait or slow down. Sometimes if you continue on you will experience prolonged flushing. This will deplete nutrients and is not recommended. Keep track of the total dose amount that causes a flush. Subtract 10% from that dose and divide that amount up throughout every day. Over time the dose will go down as the body detoxes and heals. Flushing is quick watery or loose stools. Not prolonged diarrhea. After the loose bowels stop, continue taking 1-2 grams every hour for the rest of the day.
Child Flush
Children can benefit from a flush as well. Use 1-3 grams of ascorbic acid every 15-30 minutes. When they begin complaining of stomach upset slow down. Lower the dose to 1 gram every 15 minutes until loose stools occur. Keep track of the total dose amount that causes a flush. Subtract 10% from that dose and divide that amount up throughout every day. Over time the dose will go down as the body detoxes and heals. Flushing is quick watery or loose stools. Not prolonged diarrhea. After the loose bowels ease up, continue taking 1 gram every hour for the rest of the day.
Pregnant women and babies are not recommended to do the flush.
2-4 ounces of water is enough for one teaspoon of ascorbic acid. Stay hydrated but don’t overdo it or the bloating will be worse. Coconut water, sole, or other sources of minerals is a good drink to use.
Things that may help a flush move along easily:
*Not eating beforehand
*Juicing and other sources of fiber
*Coconut oil melted in warm water
*Sometimes a light meal towards the end of a flush will push it along
Liposomal Vitamin C
This vitamin c is encapsulated in liposomes, which enhances the absorption even more efficiently than intravenous vitamin c. When liposomal vitamin c is taken it is absorbed directly by the lymphatic system and then into the blood stream without being destroyed by the digestive tract. Lipsomal vitamin c is a must have for anyone that is seeking excellent health. Livon labs offers a superior lipsomal vitamin c to any other brands. When you team up bowel tolerance doses of oral ascorbate with liposomal vitamin c, the cleansing and healing within the body is maximized!
*Pregnant women are not advised to take liposomal Vitamin c. We have reason to believe phosphatidylcholine breaks down trophoblasts.
We encourage you to look into the books, videos, and websites of these amazing vitamin c pioneers: Irwin Stone, Linus Pauling, Robert Cathcart, Frederick Klenner, Thomas Levy, Archie kalokerinos, and Suzanne Humphries. "
@jobo, A friend who has been using higher doses of vitamin C sent me that information when I asked her a few questions about it. I figured I'd pass it on to you for your reading enjoyment.
Before finding Grant's work I did several vitamin c flushes to relieve constipation but I stopped because each time my skin would dry out and flake off of my whole body. It would take close to a week for it to recover. Maybe it was forcing vitamin a to my skin?
Lots of interesting stuff in this thread thanks. It makes me think of when I did an OAT test a couple of years ago & my vitamin C level was 0.94 (normal 10-100) so very very low. I couldn't understand it as I was supplementing with 500mg to 1g per day. I now think this was an indication of high vitamin A. It seems to me that shining the light of vitamin A on many unexplained issues seems to offer solutions. Jenny
What about camu camu powder as food sourced vitamin C?
I did always best with food sourced vitamin C without side effects of ascrobic acid.
Two grams of powder may be around 150-270 mg of vitamin C, it contains few carotens and lutein, not too much, but certainly less than pineapple - good source of vitamin C in low vitamin A diet.
I was thinking about the old sailors
1. drinking all that rum,
2. alcohol sending the vitamin A from where it was safely stored (the liver) to the tissues and
3. the need for vitamin C as a remedy
Scurvy risk factor: "excessive consumption of alcohol "
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/155758.php
Study that Eliza found, which states alcohol sends the A from the liver to the tissues: