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Soluble Fiber and Bile Dumping
I often hear Garrett say that soluble fiber can makes ones dump bile and that is the reason why many cannot tolerate it. But at the same time, ones are to work up slowly to allow the body to get used to it.
Has the mechanism of the supposed increase in bile dumping and subsequent feeling like crap ever been theorized/explained and evidence given? Does the body sense soluble fiber and decide to take advantage of the situation and dump bile, but overshoots it, making ones feel bad?
Or is it more of a microbiome reaction to the increased amount of soluble fiber? After all, Garrett talks about fermentative and putrefactive types and how soluble fiber will makes ones feel bad if they don't have enough fermentative (bifido bacteria) to tolerate the increased amount of soluble fiber.
What do we make of all of this?
Quote from Jessica2 on December 21, 2022, 5:12 am@armin I think "bile dump" in response to soluble fiber is misleading, as is a lot of the understanding of bile and discussion of it on GS's network. One thing soluble fiber does seem to do is bind to bile in the intestines and cause it to leave the body. This causes the body to produce more to make up for the lost bile. Bile is a highly conserved substance in the body and the body works hard to keep it at a certain level. 95% of bile in the intestines is reabsorbed by the body, that's how highly conserved it is. If levels dip low, then the liver makes fresh, and this I think makes what GS calls the "bile dump". It's not really a "dump" of bile, its the liver generating more in response to a loss of it through fiber. This in itself can cause issues if your liver is leaky due to fatty liver/lack of choline, because bile can leak from the ducts and compromised liver cells, instead of stay in the ducts and tubes where it belongs.
Reabsorbed bile is reabsorbed bile acids, and it does have important metabolic functions in the body. On the network, many characterize the reabsorption as something bad because they think toxins are attached and reabsorbed as well, however, from what I've researched, toxins being reabsorbed are many times the result of the bad bacteria cleaving apart the conjugated toxins in bile, not some toxin attached to bile acids, which I do not think even occurs.
Thanks for the info. 🙂
When I thought of bile dumping, I often associated it with coffee, bitters, or fat causing release.
Glucoronalactone was a supplement is supposedly prevented bacteria from cleaving off toxins off of the bile.
Theoretically, wouldn't activated charcoal also elicit a similar response?
Quote from Jessica2 on December 21, 2022, 11:08 am@armin According to GS on the network charcoal doesn't do the same thing, it binds bile but doesn't stumulate more. But I'm not sure how it wouldn't now that I think about it. If it binds bile and takes it out, I would think it would stimulate more just like soluble fiber does. It would certainly explain why charcoal did the opposite to me of what GS says it does to most people. I had to stop taking it, it really messed up my bowels. I was in a gluten eating phase as well during that time so maybe that had something to do with it and added to the distress.
What is the largest amount of fiber you were taking? At 100 grams a day, after the first wild 2 week adjustment period, I felt amazing, and it just got better over time. However, the man who first experimented with giant amounts of fiber, updated his dose 5 grams a week, so it took him 20 weeks to get up to that level. And he mixed soluble and insoluble fibers about equally, and took fiber from as many different types and sources as possible.
He said that if you have a reaction to a new fiber source, or to an increase in dosage, if it isn't actually life threatening, keep going for three days, and if it abates even a little, finish off the week, your body should stop reacting by then. If it doesn't improve in that amount of time, then by all means remove the source or back off on the amount.
In addition to what @jessica2 said, I've postulated that fiber and other binders might "draw" certain compounds out of the bloodstream without those compounds having to go through the liver and bile first. I'm kicking myself for not having saved a PDF of a paper I found over a year ago that suggested that activated carbon did this via a particular mechanism...I haven't been able to find it again ever since. If that really is an observable function of fiber, that would be the best evidence to support its use in detoxification. I don't really see much reason for fiber and binders to worsen systemic symptoms otherwise...it must stem from enhanced release of toxins from peripheral storage. One alternative is that fiber is binding to toxins in the intestines and the fermentation of that fiber is releasing those bound toxins to be reabsorbed, which results in higher levels of toxins in the bloodstream as they get recycled...but, much as I like to hate on fiber, the anecdotes of people improving some health conditions on high fiber diets seems to suggest the fiber is not encouraging reabsorption of toxins.
Plant fibers, charcoal, and clay should be operating essentially the same way, the main differences being in the different binding strengths, capacities, and affinities for different molecules. All three of those things tend to make me feel worse, particularly my GI tract...feels like slow-motion torture of toxic substances moving through the colon when compared with a carnivore diet, not that the carnivore diet has provided complete relief itself.
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on December 21, 2022, 1:03 pmIn addition to what @jessica2 said, I've postulated that fiber and other binders might "draw" certain compounds out of the bloodstream without those compounds having to go through the liver and bile first. I'm kicking myself for not having saved a PDF of a paper I found over a year ago that suggested that activated carbon did this via a particular mechanism...I haven't been able to find it again ever since. If that really is an observable function of fiber, that would be the best evidence to support its use in detoxification. I don't really see much reason for fiber and binders to worsen systemic symptoms otherwise...it must stem from enhanced release of toxins from peripheral storage. One alternative is that fiber is binding to toxins in the intestines and the fermentation of that fiber is releasing those bound toxins to be reabsorbed, which results in higher levels of toxins in the bloodstream as they get recycled...but, much as I like to hate on fiber, the anecdotes of people improving some health conditions on high fiber diets seems to suggest the fiber is not encouraging reabsorption of toxins.
Plant fibers, charcoal, and clay should be operating essentially the same way, the main differences being in the different binding strengths, capacities, and affinities for different molecules. All three of those things tend to make me feel worse, particularly my GI tract...feels like slow-motion torture of toxic substances moving through the colon when compared with a carnivore diet, not that the carnivore diet has provided complete relief itself.
Fiber feeds gut bacteria, which in turn make various hormones that do interesting (positive) things to the body. Charcoal and clay do not. Fiber creates a mechanical AND a hormonal response in the body. Resistant starch as RS3 is easy to get from a traditional diet.
the latest "development" on the LYL site is sunfiber. It is pretty cheap so I'll give it a shot.
It seems a healthy microbiome is preferred if possible. Fecal transplants are done and have good results from what I've seen.
Quote from Inger on December 22, 2022, 2:23 amWhat is sunfiber exactly?
Less secondary bile acids (this is what we want!):
Effect of Repeated Consumption of Partially Hydrolyzed Guar Gum on Fecal Characteristics and Gut Microbiota: A Randomized, Double-Blind, Placebo-Controlled, and Parallel-Group Clinical Trial
“the conversion of primary BAs into secondary BAs calculated by deoxycholic acid/(cholic acid + deoxycholic acid) in serum decreased significantly in the PHGG group after 12 weeks (p < 0.05), but not in the placebo group.”
Also, in those with diarrhea, Sunfiber normalized the poop & did NOT increase the frequency of pooping:
“Diarrhea is defined as loose, mushy, or watery stools or a stool frequency of more than three bowel movements per day…In this study, fecal characteristics were normalized by PHGG, but not affected the fecal frequency.”
PHGG protects the liver against ethanol (ALCOHOL) injury and reduces malondiALDEHYDE production:
Hepatoprotective Potential of Partially Hydrolyzed Guar Gum against Acute Alcohol-Induced Liver Injury in Vitro and Vivo
“PHGG co-administration decreased serum amino transaminases [reduced liver enzymes AST & ALT] and cholinesterase levels of acute alcohol intoxicated mice, while hepatic pathologic morphology was depleted. Activity of superoxide dismutase, catalase, and glutathione peroxidase was recovered to 198.2, 34.5, 236.0 U/mg protein, respectively, while malondialdehyde level was decreased by 76.3% (PHGG, 1000 mg/kg∙day)...Findings gained suggest that PHGG can be used as functional food supplement for the treatment of acute alcohol-induced liver injury.”
More pooping out of bile acids:
The cholesterol-lowering effect of guar gum is not the result of a simple diversion of bile acids toward fecal excretion
“In rats fed…PHGG, the fecal excretion of bile acids and neutral sterol was higher than in controls”
Why we do NOT use regular GUAR GUM:
“The intestinal (ileal or cecal) reabsorption of bile acids was not reduced, but rather increased, by GUAR”
PHGG reduced fatty liver:
Partially hydrolyzed guar gum attenuates non-alcoholic fatty liver disease in mice through the gut-liver axis
"Mice with increased intestinal permeability subjected to the Ath diet showed significantly increased serum AST and ALT levels, liver fat accumulation, liver inflammatory (tumor necrosis factor-α and monocyte chemotactic protein-1) and fibrogenic (collagen 1a1 and α smooth muscle actin) marker levels, and liver myeloperoxidase activity, which were significantly attenuated by PHGG treatment.
…
it decreased lipopolysaccharide [endotoxin] signaling through the gut-liver axis.
…
PHGG partially prevented NAFLD development in mice through the gut-liver axis”
Less leaky gut (so less toxic bile reaching the kidneys, so better kidney health), more Lactobacillus, better gut biome:
Dietary Fermentable Fibers Attenuate Chronic Kidney Disease in Mice by Protecting the Intestinal Barrier
“Supplemental feeding with fermentable dietary fibers, such as…PHGG, might be effective for the prevention or management of chronic kidney disease by restoring colonic barrier integrity and microflora composition, as shown in mice.
…
The CKD+PHGG [chronic kidney disease + PHGG]…had greater expression of…Lactobacillus (2.7- to 4.0-fold) concentrations than the CKD [chronic kidney disease] group.”
Less laxative use (less constipation), less diarrhea, more Bifido:
Partially hydrolyzed guar gum: clinical nutrition uses
“Addition of PHGG to the diet reduced laxative dependence in a nursing home population. PHGG also reduced the incidence of diarrhea in septic patients receiving total enteral nutrition and reduced symptoms of irritable bowel syndrome. PHGG also increased production of Bifidobacterium in the gut.”
Less bloating, less gas, and all sorts of gut improvements:
Randomized clinical study: Partially hydrolyzed guar gum (PHGG) versus placebo in the treatment of patients with irritable bowel syndrome
“A 12-week administration of PHGG led to a significant improvement of journal bloating score in the PHGG group versus placebo, as well as in bloating+gasses score.
…
PHGG increases the concentration of bifidobacterium and lactobacilli species and increases short-chain fatty acids in the colonic lumen [8–13]. It has also been shown to have a positive effect on some medical conditions, e.g., reducing blood cholesterol and controlling blood sugar levels [14–16]. In addition, it was found to be effective in the treatment of acute diarrhea in children and adult patients of intensive care units [17–19]. PHGG has proved to be effective in softening and improving fecal output and increasing bulking capacities (fecal weight, frequency of defecation, and fecal excretory feeling) [10, 11, 20, 21] It has also been investigated as a possible treatment for IBS and found to have a positive effect, especially in constipation-predominant IBS [22–26].”
Less flu (aka toxic bile dump into the blood) in those who used PHGG:
The effect of partially hydrolyzed guar gum on preventing influenza infection
“Stool pH and BSS were different between patients with and without PHGG intake and those with and without influenza onset, suggesting that PHGG can affect the intestinal environment and thus contribute to reducing the incidence of influenza.”
For “OVER” types, PHGG increased satiety (decreased appetite) & decreased between-meal snacking:
Post-meal perceivable satiety and subsequent energy intake with intake of partially hydrolysed guar gum
“The addition of PHGG showed significant acute (studies 1 and 3) and long-term (studies 1 and 2) satiety effects compared to the control and/or an equal amount of carbohydrate or other types of soluble fibre. Study 2 also indicated that the prolonged consumption of PHGG may significantly (P < 0.05) reduce energy intake from whole-day snacking. PHGG could be an ideal natural soluble fibre for delivering acute and long term satiety effects for comfortable appetite control.”
Also for “OVER” types, PHGG decreased the amount of weight gain in hamsters on a high-fat diet, while their Caloric intake remained the same:
Partially hydrolyzed guar gums reduce dietary fatty acid and sterol absorption in guinea pigs independent of viscosity
“Guinea pigs (n = 8 per group) were fed high fat diets (17/100 g) that contained 12/100 g of cellulose, PHGG1, or PHGG2 for 4 weeks. Despite the differences in viscosity, the two PHGG exerted similar physiological effects. Compared to the control cellulose group, the body weight gain was lower in animals fed PHGG, although no effect on food consumption was observed.”
For “UNDER” types: PHGG helps relieve depression & stress-related weight loss (aka toxic bile dumps leaking into the blood, making one not want to eat so they don’t dump even more bile):
Partially Hydrolyzed Guar Gum Modulates Gut Microbiota, Regulates the Levels of Neurotransmitters, and Prevents CUMS-Induced Depressive-Like Behavior in Mice
“PHGG is orally administered to mice with depression induced by chronic unpredictable mild stress (CUMS) in two animal experiments (prevention trial and intervention trial) to characterize the potentially protective effect of PHGG. The results in the prevention trial show that PHGG significantly inhibits the loss of body weight, and prevents CUMS-induced depressive-like behavior in mice…This study suggests that moderate daily intake of PHGG can contribute to relieving depressive-like behavior.”
Also for “UNDER” types, PHGG prevented sarcopenic obesity (aka “skinny-fat”):
Partially Hydrolyzed Guar Gum Suppresses the Development of Sarcopenic Obesity
“PHGG increased grip strength and the weight of skeletal muscles…Concerning innate immunity, PHGG decreased the ratio of inflammatory cells, while increasing the ratio of anti-inflammatory cells in the small intestine. The present study demonstrated the preventive effect of PHGG on sarcopenic obesity.”
PHGG reduced the effect of an artery-clogging high-fat diet on hamsters while also prolonging the time until they “threw a blood clot” (arterial thrombus, often known to people as a heart attack, stroke, or deep vein thrombosis):
Partially hydrolyzed guar gum supplement reduces high-fat diet increased blood lipids and oxidative stress and ameliorates FeCl
"High fat-diet increased plasma triglyceride, total cholesterol, LDL, VLDL, methylguanidine and dityrosine level and accelerated FeCl3-induced arterial thrombosis formation (from 463 +/- 51 to 303 +/- 45 sec). Low dose PHGG supplement significantly decreased the total cholesterol, LDL, methylguanidine and dityrosine level and delayed the time for arterial thrombosis formation (528 +/- 75 sec). High dose PHGG supplement decreased the level in triglyceride, total cholesterol, LDL and VLDL and further delayed the time for arterial thrombus (671 +/- 36 sec).”
Sunfiber research archive:
https://sunfiber.com/research/
The most comprehensive search I could think of for Pubmed entries that mention Sunfiber/PHGG:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=%28%28partially+hydrolyzed+guar+gum%5BTitle%2FAbstract%5D%29+OR+%28partially+hydrolysed+guar+gum%5BTitle%2FAbstract%5D%29+OR+%28PHGG%5BTitle%2FAbstract%5D%29+OR+%28sunfiber%5BTitle%2FAbstract%5D%29%29&sort=
Quote from Hermes on December 22, 2022, 7:54 am
I currently take olmesartan at around 10mg/day. Olmesartan tends to make me tired/foggy and I haven't used high dose in about a year.
Betaine usage has been pretty good so far. I've been taking about 750mg/day for the past week. I take about 450mg of Choline as well. I made some eggs and sausage for the first time in about 2 years. Egg prices sure have gone up. I've been doing pretty good so far. Some mild headaches early on (last week) but overall feel like I have more energy, especially when I get inadequate sleep.