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The 1961 paper "Protein Intake in Liver Disease"
Does that harken back to the poster who was a fruitarian who seemed to be doing well? Â In other words, low protein, no conversion to VA?
That is interesting and I can relate in my experiences.
The least amount of symptoms I had were when I was on the Gundry diet. I ate very very little protein and ate a ton of sweet potatoes and avocadoes among other carotenoid rich greens. I was strength training on low protein. It wasn't until I started adding extra protein back in, due to strength training, that my symptoms spiked. Possibly from conversion of carotenoids to retinol. Subsequently lowering my protein didn't really blunt any of the issues that were triggered and that would make sense, as the "damage" had been done.Â
Carnivore may be a sort of rescue diet that can be helpful to mitigate the formed retinol in the short term, but also may trigger continued conversion of carotenoids. Subsequently losing weight by restricting calories seems to cause my symptoms to increase and that may be due to less protein and nutrients in general to help offset the circulating panic my body has to deal with.
@david Life happened 🙂 well anyway I havent much more to contribute to the stuff youposted except still agreeing that its hard to argue AGAINST chewing if not taken to real excess. I have no doubt that protein that doesnt digest properly makes a lot of trouble. All undigested food has some negative effects but thats not negating anything. I do wonder about this though: https://paleoleap.com/raw-meat/
I think how we process or not (chewing is after all also processing even if a very basic one) might affect both absorption and digestion
Just tried completly untreated honey from a comb and it was very different. (While I have experimented with raw meat I dont have anything substantial to report from it)
Thank you for the reply!
If you remember, did you eat high iron meat when you added in the extra protein coming from a low protein diet?
I ask because I think excess iron, more than excess protein, might be the main difference between your two protein intake states. Similar to the two examples from the golden ovaries study; normal protein and probably normal serum iron with excess carotenoids lead to more bleeding (I presume from more retinoids) compared with the low protein and probably very low serum iron with excess carotenoids
I guess one way excess iron can be bad is that it might enhanced the activity of the beta-carotene middle cleavage enzyme (BCO1).
Below is a link to a cell study about iron, beta-carotene and BCO1 (β-Carotene 15,15′-Dioxygenase), the enzyme that can cleave one beta-carotene molecule into two retinaldehyde molecules.
This 2001 human cell tissue study called:
"β-Carotene 15,15′-Dioxygenase activity in human tissues and cells: evidence of an iron dependency"
https://doi.org/10.1016/S0955-2863(01)00184-X
In this study they add an iron chelator (desferrioxamine) and BCO1 activity went down with about 80%. After that their tissue/cell culture was supplemented with iron and the BCO1 activity went up again, as the desferrioxamine (iron chelator) was already used up.
This might explain why it is known that iron increases vitamin A absorption, but it is perhaps that iron specifically increases beta-carotene to retinaldehyde conversion and therefore seems to increase vitamin A absorption.
Those that don't do well with beef and other high iron foods might have too much beta-carotene stored in their body. Excess of iron might convert some of that stored beta-carotene too fast into retinaldehyde and make them feel bad if it can't quickly get converted to retinyl-esters and stored away.
Happy to read your comments, whenever you post them!
I have no really thoughts on raw foods more than hopefully some beneficial bacteria might be attracted to and living on certain foods. Keeping it raw might have some direct benefits like that and perhaps some living enzymes but at the same time I believe the absorption of the food usually suffers; and as you mention unabsorbed food probably always cause some form of problems. I see fiber more as food for the microbiome than food for one self.
I don't know much about eating raw meat or raw honey but please share any thought you might gain on it over time!
Quote from David on June 7, 2023, 8:34 amHappy to read your comments, whenever you post them!
I have no great idea about raw foods more than hopefully some beneficial bacteria might be attracted to and living on certain foods. Keeping it raw might have some direct benefits like that and perhaps some living enzymes but at the same time I believe the absorption of the food usually suffers; and as you mention unabsorbed food probably always cause some form of problems. I see fiber more as food for the microbiome than for one self.
I don't know much about eating raw meat or raw honey but please share any thought you might gain on it over time!
Thanks. I agree and Im not a big raw-food enthusiast but I find it intersting. But the papers I've seen, included the article I linked, suggests that protein uptake actually might be significantly better when eating raw meat compared to cooked. Of course from a pathogen perspective it is less good, and it does have some benefits when chewing it to eat it cooked. And a lot of plantfood seems to need this to be digestible. Now I have no problems personally eating a raw steak but I tend to feel bad and get weird bodysmell if I do it exclusively as well as my moles seemingly growing (or is my perception of them altered). That might point to a poorer absorption after all but it might be completly different and have more to do with gut-bacteria, thermogenesis, or hormonal reactions. I just find it intersting. I remember a long time ago I found I tolerated raw milk better than pasturized but Im not doing dairy at all now just mentioning it concerning experiences with raw food. On the intestinal flora I find it intersting that my gut-flora seem to be all fine with raw meat even if I dont usually eat it which is somewhat surprising to me. Ill see if I can remember to let you know how the raw honey thing goes -it might not only be due to the raw-ness but also the inclusion of bees wax when eating the comb, offsetting problems with the honey itself but it doesnt seem to be the whole thing as even if I just eat the honey itself I feel better.
I have nothing to add on raw food or raw meat more than that I also believe it increases the risk of getting problems with pathogenic bacteria.
On raw honey, you might be seeing some benefit from the bacteria that exists in honey. I made a quick search and for example got this 2020 study from Iran, it is called:
"Some probiotic properties of Lactobacillus species isolated from honey and their antimicrobial activity against foodborne pathogens"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7413009/
From the abstract:
"From 88 honey samples, 39 isolates were identified by 16S rDNA gene sequencing method. Fructophilic lactic acid bacteria (FLAB) with 29 (74.00%) isolates were dominant identified bacteria (27 L. kunkeei and two Fructobacillus fructosus). Also, four L. plantarum, two L. paracasei, one L. brevis, one L. rhamnosus, one L. casei and one L. fermentum were identified. Two L. kunkeei isolates and one F. fructosus isolate were resistant to acid and bile salt. Two L. rhamnosus isolates and one L. paracasei isolate inhibited all pathogens (100%)."
@armin
Here is another study on how a zero protein diet is detrimental when it comes to excreting vitamin A from a rat liver, see the attached table. This freely available 1959 study is called:
"Effect of protein-free diet on the vitamin A storage in the rat liver"
https://doi.org/10.1038/1831597a0
A quote from this short paper:
"Despite this large loss of weight, the rats kept on a protein-free ration stored just as much vitamin A in the liver as did the animals fed a ration supplemented with 18 per cent casein. In fact, the casein-fed rats stored less vitamin A than the animals kept on a protein-free diet. Thus the average liver vitamin A content of the former group was 54·7 µgm. and that of the latter 96·1 µgm. In view of the considerable difference between the liver weights of the two groups it was of interest to compare the vitamin A content when expressed per unit of weight. The casein-fed rats contained an average of 9·3 µgm. vitamin A/gm. liver whereas the rats which were kept on a regimen devoid of any protein stored 71·2 µgm./gm. liver."
Quote from David on July 23, 2023, 9:44 am@armin
Here is another study on how a zero protein diet is detrimental when it comes to excreting vitamin A from a rat liver, see the attached table. This freely available 1959 study is called:
"Effect of protein-free diet on the vitamin A storage in the rat liver"
https://doi.org/10.1038/1831597a0A quote from this short paper:
"Despite this large loss of weight, the rats kept on a protein-free ration stored just as much vitamin A in the liver as did the animals fed a ration supplemented with 18 per cent casein. In fact, the casein-fed rats stored less vitamin A than the animals kept on a protein-free diet. Thus the average liver vitamin A content of the former group was 54· 7 µgm. and that of the latter 96 ·1 µgm. In view of the considerable difference between the liver weights of the two groups it was of interest to compare the vitamin A content when expressed per unit of weight. The casein-fed rats contained an average of 9 ·3 µgm. vitamin A/gm. liver whereas the rats which were kept on a regimen devoid of any protein stored 71·2 µgm./gm. liver."
This explains how my Dr. Gundry days of high VA and fats (I would mix a cup or more of oil into cooked sweet potatoes) and very low protein got me into trouble.