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The Anti-Egg Thread š«š„
Quote from puddleduck on June 13, 2023, 5:14 am...Nah, my detox wasnāt going too fast. For 4 years it had been surprisingly steady, but fairly slow, I think? Iām at the point now where I see that as a good thing.
...
Consuming eggs for three months this year significantly worsened my CFS/POTS, gave me nasty rashes on my legs, re-activated the hemangioma in my eye, and negatively affected my mental health, sleep, digestion, and mensuration experience (lol). So I stopped.
Andrewās perspective:
āEggs contrary to what the weird Doctor has told us definitely do not slow down the detox. It gets stronger and stronger as the choline is replenished and/or the bile flows better with the phosphatidylcholine.ā
This has seemed plausible to me from the day I first read Andrewās and Jessicaās threads...
From 2005 to 2018, I consumed eggs under the influence of the Weston A. Price Foundation. Part of that time, I drank ābanana nogā every morning (raw whole milk + raw egg yolks + two bananas with no added sugar) and I was still super sick from 2006 onwards.
Eggs didnāt protect me from developing chronic hypervitaminosis A. Itās possible they even contributed to my toxicity in the first place.
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That is a big old bummer that those symptoms returned so strongly.
I think you have hit upon the damned if we do, damned if we don't aspect of VA detox. Ā One of the "nutshell" ideas here is that the toxicity symptoms (tox) and deficiency symptoms (attempted detox) are the same symptoms, right? Ā The symptoms of too much circulating tox! Ā Oh gosh.
Maybe what we need to do (100% without being heroic) (and I laugh as I write this, because what is "right"?) do the right thing for the right reasons, but only so much so that we stay in "slight discomfort zone"? Ā In the "slight discomfort zone" whatever our own personal issues with detoxification are ... hopefully our systems are not overloaded and maxing out. Ā Hopefully real work is getting done and not damage.
It seems to me that perhaps my suffering through time has actually resulted in better health here at 60 years old...than my husband whose body never realized it was being poisoned. Ā However, my suffering was way beyond the "slight discomfort zone". Ā Ā
Perhaps 1/12 of an egg is the right amount of egg for you? Ā If you are super comfy at 1/12, maybe you could move up to 1/6th LOL.
(whoops, sorry I hope I'm not being too pro-egg for the thread! Ā hee hee)
Another confounding factor is that all eggs are different based on what the chickens are exposed to.
The eggs I was eating as a wapfer were bright-orange yolk, getting the double dose of all the carotenes and retinoids in modern chicken feed (even organic) plus the free-range carotenes and retinoids they gathered each day on their own. Ā My current home-grown eggs are medium yellow yolk.
Yesterday I was in the feed store and contemplating an experiment. Ā They sell chicken scratch which seems to be a supplemental thing (not an all-encompassing feed with all the bells and whistles). Ā I think it is I was thinking it might be fun to (during these summer months) Ā try free-ranging again with chicken scratch being the only thing I give them. Ā
I guess I can't help but think that the reason many people here can't do eggs is because they have been ruined by modern feeds. Ā Ā
Modern feed companies ought to take note, because they only hurt themselves if people can't eat eggs.
I have this rash too that I think comes from DE that I tried out, but now I am not sure if it maybe comes from eggs... I need to pause a little with my eggs and see if the rash goes away, its sooo annoying š
I think some of the things from eggs are hugely important. Choline, Ethanoalamine...all highly useful during detox.
BUT, I do have concerns / worries for the bioavailability of the retinoids and carotenoids in the yolk. Having experienced some pretty bad impacts to my esophagus thru my journey (mine has strictured and I've had severe dysphagia / trouble swallowing in the past)...I do not want to re-trigger this just so I can get some added Choline (to which I can get thru other means)
I do wonder if not heating the egg yolks is best, or if actually cooking them denatures and outright destroys many of the retinoids. If anyone has any evidence here, that would be appreciated!
"Consuming eggs for three months this year significantly worsened my CFS/POTS, gave me nasty rashes on my legs, re-activated the hemangioma in my eye, and negatively affected my mental health, sleep, digestion, and mensuration experience (lol). So I stopped." - @puddleduck
Do you think your connection with iron status may have something to do with this?Ā Do you think iron has been a major factor in your CFS?Ā Iron deficiency anemia has a link with mold exposure.Ā
For most of my childhood, I lived in a farmhouse with black mold, so itās entirely possible, @pattycake! Thank you.
I think you have hit upon the damned if we do, damned if we don't aspect of VA detox. Ā One of the "nutshell" ideas here is that the toxicity symptoms (tox) and deficiency symptoms (attempted detox) are the same symptoms, right? Ā The symptoms of too much circulating tox! Ā Oh gosh.
Maybe what we need to do (100% without being heroic) (and I laugh as I write this, because what is "right"?) do the right thing for the right reasons, but only so much so that we stay in "slight discomfort zone"? Ā In the "slight discomfort zone" whatever our own personal issues with detoxification are ... hopefully our systems are not overloaded and maxing out. Ā Hopefully real work is getting done and not damage.
Thatās well said, @lil-chick! Itās hard to know which is what, and Iām certainly not certain Iāll always guess ārightā when it comes to my own reactions. š
Maybe sleeping and sh*tting in the āslight discomfort zoneā is the goal? Those two functions seem reliably sensitive to changes I make, still.
Based on the Swedish osteoporosis study, I donāt wish to consume greater than 500 mcg of (absorbable) Retinol Activity Equivalents per day (at least, not on a regular basis), ever again. Thatās my chosen maximum. And during this ādetoxā period, which willāpresuming my remaining health conditions are directly caused by chronic hypervitaminosis Aācontinue until my health has hopefully improved more, I believe it is best for me to continue to consume less than my chosen maximum of 500 mcg of RAE daily.
So, I know you have a preference for animal-based vitamin A, and I sort of lean towards the opposite preference...but Iām not sure either preference is definitively ācorrectā as a rule, because it only makes sense some individuals might be better at handling one or the other based upon a myriad of known and unknown factors, including genetics! (I also wonder if which form of vitamin Aāretinyl esters or caratenoidsāis predominantly stored in our tissues makes a difference, too.)
Whether or not you believe chronic hypervitaminosis A is a toxicity of a needed nutrient makes a difference in which you prefer as well... If I believed I was a poor converter of carotenoids into vitamin A, and that I needed retinoic acid for proper brain function, I would max out my 500 mcg allowance with four eggs and two tablespoons butter per day! (This alone would get me to nearly 600 mg choline, too, which Iād want if I believed I needed a greater choline intake than average.)
That could well be true, but even if itās not, a high choline requirement would be reason enough for me to consume my chosen allotment of vitamin A in the form of eggs.
But donāt feel my appetite is guiding me towards eggs right now, and I am sleeping (with REM dreaming) and eliminating much better without them, so I am guessing my choline needs are relatively low.
So, for now, I prefer to use my RAE allowance on foods I seem to crave and like most. š
Four bananas are 3% of my RAE allowance, and they offer 150% of the RDA for B6, loads more than eggs do, and I feel the bananas and B6 are what I need! (This is definitely not true for everyone.)
3% might seem like a tiny amount, but for four years I never ate much more than that, really! Now that I am able to do so, I am. But it all adds up... One tablespoon of hemp oil contains 10% of my RAE, and it will be more absorbable than a lowfat source of beta carotene.
My preference for carotenoids, aside from the evidence we donāt absorb so many carotenoids when eaten with fiber instead of fats, comes from speculation that perhaps the body prefers to be in charge of how much retinoic acid it produces?
This speculation is perhaps somewhat contradicted by the existence of microbes which will activate vitamin A from foods into retinoic acid in the gut... The researchers who are investigating this are quite pleased, as they feel this must be beneficial to the immune function of the gut lining... Iām not so sure?
Our gut microbiome seems to matter a great deal, anyway!
I have seen this one small group of people that avoid many lecithins/emulsifiers, all or just some or reducing, with the idea to help their gut lining. It is the people from the "Alliance to Cure Cavernous Malformation" which is a rare disease patient group. Cavernous malformations are raspberry shaped blood vessel legions formed inside the brain, these are more prone to bleeding. And from listening to a brain suregon talking about this brian condition, cavernous malformations, he said something like:
I can induce a brain seizure by just spilling one drop of blood when I am operating on a brain. Cerebral cavernous malformations can be surgically removed if they are large/many enough and cause significant symptoms.
This group have an interesting webpage on the subject called "Microbiome/Gut Health" where they talk about avoiding emulsifiers, especially:
carrageenan (red algae extract), carboxymethylcellulose, methylcellulose, maltodextran and polysorbate-80 (P80).
Link to their page on "Microbiome/Gut Health":
https://www.alliancetocure.org/cavernous-angioma-in-depth/lifestyle-maintenance/microbiome-gut-health/
A PDF summarizing research on several different emulsifiers and doing a simple grading of red (bad), yellow (mixed or insufficient results) or green (good):
https://www.alliancetocure.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Emulsifier-Scores.pdf
For those with cerebral cavernous malformations or interested how a dysbiosis can cause brain problems through a leaky gut, the website above links to this 2020 study called:
"Permissive microbiome characterizes human subjects with a neurovascular disease cavernous angioma"
https://doi.org/10.1038/s41467-020-16436-w
An example quote from the discussion of the study:
"Of the three species identified in the diagnostic microbiome (Fig. 1e, f), F. prausnitzii and B. adolescentis are Gram-positive species have been shown to be protective against gut inflammation28,29,30, and are less abundant in CA [Cavernous Anginoma] patients. The Gram-negative species O. splanchnicus, more abundant in CA patients, enhances gut inflammation, and has been linked to other neurological diseases31."
PS. Lutein, a common carotenoid in eggs, is know to be one of the most lipophilic carotenoids. Lipophilic compounds can, on top of perhaps being absorbed through channels in the cell, always diffuse into the cell. I think it makes lutein similar to many other fat-soluble toxins and why it can cause so many problems ā I believe there is no good way to stop any diffusion of fat-soluble compounds from happening inside of the body whenever there is a concentration difference.