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This was a good theory with mediocre results
Quote from Liz on October 9, 2022, 12:45 amQuote from Jenny on October 8, 2022, 7:25 amInteresting debate.
I was an extremely clear case of vA poisoning. Got ill when i started the supplement. Felt a lot better when I cut it out. My main symptom was bizarre weight gain. I had others but this was the easiest to follow precisely. I drew a graph of my weight. Since birth of first child completely stable for 17 years. Then in 2013 a dramatic 20lb gain for no apparent reason. This levelled off but never went away. Then in 2018 sudddenly it happened again. This time another 10lbs on. This put me 30lbs over my normal weight and well into the overweight range, a place I’d never been in my entire life. Then I discovered Grants work and thought maybe it’s the 5000IU retinyl palmitate I’m taking (at that point recommended by Garrett Smith for high calcium). I’d also been having head pressure and light sensitivity. Then I looked back at the supplements I was taking in 2013 and in June 2013, the very month my weight started to shoot up, I’d added high strength cod liver oil!! Luckily I’d changed to another omega 3 product after a while. That was enough for me. I lowered my vA intake. I never went VERY low vA and I never excluded food groups. I lost my excess weight and the other bizarre symptoms went away too.
However, sadly I think I did make a big mistake with my low vA diet because I wasn’t mindful of my choline intake. I now think I was showing signs of choline and acetylcholine deficiency. Unforeseen consequences of limited diets. I cut out eggs. I don’t digest meat well. Big mistake I now think. Shot myself in the foot. I’m now trying to sort out the consequences of this. At least I’m not fat anymore! Andrew Baird on FB or on Garrett Smith’s network is the man talking sense about this. I’m becoming more and more convinced. The one thing I could never improve was my anxiety. I think B6 was part of the answer but if you don’t have acetylcholine then you can’t run your parasympathetic (rest and digest) system so you tend to stay stuck in sympathetic (flight or fight). That was me. I’m so much better with B6 and choline. So much better. Beware of unintended consequences.
Thanks @jaj for the choline reminder, it had me reinstall mighty networks to check out Andrew's posts and he has made quite a few posts on the topic lately. Also there are some interesting studies as well. Smith seems to be all cholestatis = fatty liver = buy his (very expensive) supplement, and he believes choline to be shuffeling A back into liver storage. But he changes his view like every week so hard to keep tack
. If choline helps with what we like to call detox it could definately be a key nutrient to keep in mind. And for some, meat seems not to be enough. Andrew did eat lots of meat but he also needed like 4 eggs a day, which probably had A lot of helpful co-factors as well despite providing a lot of A. The extra A can also have eased on the (what we like to refer to as) "dumping". I am surprised Smith hasn't banned him yet for providing ideas that goes against his own, or maybe he has stopped doing that?
But you did take choline supplement some years ago, but stopped?
If the dose makes the poison, and the dose depends on the liver's capacity to "detox", along with genes/mutations/nutritional status, with nutritional background in mind, the way out of this mess, and the time needed, is indeed very individual.
@kurtis thanks for your very constructive feedback.
Edit: Andrew did not do well on eggs at first if I remember correctly but after 2,5 years low A they are now helpful for him. I have similar experience with eggs and low fat dairy. No issues anymore, might even be beneficial (dairy also have choline, b2 and other helpful nutrients, iuised to crave like 2 liters a day 6 months ago, now only a cup here and there)
I also am skeptical of Garrett's view on choline.
He says that it takes Vitamin A out of the blood and back to the liver. I see that as a good thing. It is taking the damaging compound out the blood (where it does its damage) and back to the elimination site (liver).
Quote from Jenny on October 9, 2022, 2:39 pmAndrew has done some great work on choline. I don’t agree with Garrett Smith’s opinion on this or many other things come to that. Full story still emerging. I realise now I probably have acetylcholine deficiency. I have all the symptom list.
Can you pls list some of the symptoms that you have?
This probably belongs in a thread of its own, I found this study really fast, this topic is certainly worth diving into...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2010061/
Healthy humans consuming a choline-deficient diet for 3 wk had depleted stores of choline in tissues and developed signs of incipient liver dysfunction. Our observations support the conclusion and choline is an essential nutrient for humans when excess methionine and folate are not available in the diet.
Yes I think it’s MASSIVE. Andrew Baird has been the person doing all the work on this. I’ve read it and thought YES. He posts on the Network and on the vA toxicity FB page (he’s an admin there) and his own page.
Jiri this was the article that made me think oh no that’s me. Or maybe oh yes as it gives me a possible way to improve. I think that other (non nutrient) work is most important for balancing the nervous system. However, if you haven’t got the raw ingredients for the parasympathetic system to work well…not going to be easy (Diana Driscoll talks about this).
I plan to for days when I’m not controlling what I eat. I’ve currently got a choline supplement but I think PC sounds better. I want to consistently get a good amount each day and a supplement may be needed. Also, I can’t have too many eggs due to current extreme Lutein sensitivity.
TL:DR
Symptoms of Acetylcholine Deficiency
- Constipation/gastroparesis
- Memory problems
- Difficulty with word recall when speaking
- Learning difficulties
- Dry mouth
- Dry eyes
- Orthostatic hypotension
- Low muscle tone
- Depressed mood
- Fast heart rate
- Chronic inflammation
- Emotional instability
I def suffer from the first 4 myself, which got worse on my (unknowingly) high ox diet despite low A. I was sharp as fxxx in my upper teens,
When I was at my sickest, I ate the "healthiest", shitloads of ox and A from vegs, including 4 raw egg yolks in smoothie. Come to think of it, which is nothing but speculation, my high bean + choline but severely A + ox poisonous diet back then could have been protective 🤷♀️
I have them all to some degree. Not sure about muscle tone. The word recall is something that got really bad at one stage on this detox. Not great now. Very unusual for me.
Andrew Baird just posted a great post on FB. He thinks the choline directly helps the detox.
That is interesting @jaj. Do you experience better days and worse days, or just every day horrible? Did it happen slowly or just one day you couldn't recall words?
I don't have any social media, but did you say Andrew has a homepage? From what I have read now, I think Andrew might be right 🤯. Eggs also have all the co-factors choline needs, it would be a great food for those who can tolerate them. Funny how choline is not seen as an essential nutrient (at least not in my country) when it clearly plays a very important role...
I’m just generally much worse at word recall now (and last couple of years) than ever before in my life. It goes up and down. I thought it was something to do with covid (I had the first nasty strain) but when I read the acetylcholine deficiency list and worked out my average choline intake I thought ‘Ah’. It was really bad at one point but I haven’t written down details of when, so I can’t correlate to diet.
Well done for not having social media. Andrew does use FB, however, he’s just re-posted his FB post on Garrett Smith’s Network.
I think it was found to be an essential nutrient in 1998, from memory. But maybe not everywhere.
Edit: Yes, 1998
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782876/