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Vitamin B1, diarrhea, constipation, IBS, bedwetting, and gut dysbiosis
Jenny, that is all so interesting - I will look for Overton's article - is it the one about dosing?
I definitely think it's true that supplementing anything throws lots of other things off. And then, of course, supplementing lots of things has the potential to throw off lots of things! 🙂 When I supplementing methylfolate in very small doses, because it seemed indicated for all the mental health issues I was suffering from, I had the worst panic attacks of my entire life (and since panic attacks were the primary feature of the anxiety and depression I was attempting to treat, that is saying something!) And yet supplementing zinc plus B6 plus co-factors a la William Walsh, which is what I did after the methylfolate debacle because one single person commented on a Ben Lynch thread and noted this paradoxical reaction potential with methylfolate, was life-changing in a positive way.
What I was kind of hoping/thinking about with the B1 this time is that...after three years of our vitamin A detox, we are in a better place than we ever have been, and our diet is reasonably well-rounded - so perhaps our bodies might be able to better scavange necessary co-factors for B1 supplementation? Or not, in which case I will have to re-evaluate. I'm not so sure whether or who to trust concerning doses of any combination, though. I never found any nutrient therapist apart from William Walsh who could argue as convincingly and more importantly, yield such impressive results for 75% of my family members (and of course, a 25% fail is still not perfect)...
Side effect from B1 that I have noticed in the baby (although it coincided with the summer heat commencing, so it's hard to know) is that his sleep seems a little lighter. But his digestion continues to be much better, with much more normal and formed poops...
Yes the dosing one. https://www.eonutrition.co.uk
I haven’t yet bought it so I can’t vouch for its usefulness but I think Elliot is intelligent, well researched and has client experience, so I’m guessing it contains some gems.
I’m sure B1 is very important so it’s good to hear your family is doing well. I’m toying with increasing my dose. I’m currently taking a B multi to cover all bases.
Sorry to hear about your methylfolate reaction. I have a similar one. I’ve always thought it’s due to my COMT SNPs. People with slow COMT don’t do well with excess methyl groups apparently.
Was the William Walsh protocol for pyroluria? You may have already said, so apologies if I’ve missed it. My current theory of pyroluria is that it’s a 2 step process: 1. Body making excess pyrroles (necessary but not sufficient) 2. Pyrroles getting into blood and kidneys where they shouldn’t be, where they deplete nutrients (they should leave in bile via gut). Therefore the vA detox which should improve cholestasis (leaky liver) and leaky gut…eventually…should improve pyroluria imo. It should help heal the ‘leaks’ and keep the pyrroles away from where they can cause damage. However, I’ve found that while going through the detox process the B6 (and zinc) support is still needed. This makes sense as I’m sure leaky liver/gut doesn’t heal straight away. My anxiety had got worse and worse during the vA detox, as I’d not been taking B6 until this year. Once B6 is low, neurotransmitter production is affected and anxiety more likely. This causes a stress increase (impossible not to be stressed if anxiety is high), which affects bile flow. Vicious cycle ensues. I’ve also had a stressful few years in other ways so I’m probably not the best candidate for assessing B6 requirements for pyroluria during detox. However, my advice to anybody who knows they have pyroluria is to NOT drop B6 until they are sure their liver/gut health is better. Or at least reduce it slowly and assess anxiety levels. As I’ve said before adding B6 back in has really helped me and I’m kicking myself for listening to other people.
Love the discussion! I found a paper on how autism resembles aldehyde toxicity and it talks quite a bit about B6 and B1:
"Frequently overlooked are the data demonstrating that endogenous aldehydes induce localized, intracellular deficiencies in a subset of micronutrients, which either initiate oxidative stress (multiple sulfur-containing antioxidants, Zn2+) or serve as cofactors (B1, B6, folate, and Zn2+) in the metabolic pathways implicated in autism: neurotransmitter functions, DNA methylation, chromatin remodeling, transcriptional regulation, and neuronal development. Thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP), the activated form of B1, and Mg2+ are cofactors of he E1 subunit of pyruvate dehydrogenase. The latter enzyme converts pyruvate to acetate and is the rate-limiting step in the ultimate synthesis of the neurotransmitter acetylcholine. When the conversion of pyruvate to acetate is blocked, the accumulating pyruvate is converted to lactate. Curiously, a subset of ASD individuals exhibit classical mitochondrial dysfunction as well as an atypical form without the classic features associated with mitochondrial disease.133 No one has addressed the possibility that a B1 deficiency elevates plasma lactate levels and is commonly mistaken for mitochondrial dysfunction.134 The activated form of B6, usually in combination with Zn2+ or Mg2+, is a cofactor in over 300 enzymes, including those involved in the production of neurotransmitters, such as GABA, glutamate, dopamine, and serotonin. B6 and folate are involved in methylation reactions; so chronic deficiencies in one or both disrupt the methylation of DNA,48 which subsequently alters certain transcriptional signaling, DNA repair mechanisms, and chromatin remodeling.49 In addition to the methylation of DNA, folate is essential in DNA and RNA syntheses, repair of DNA, cell division, and proper neural tube formation. Zn2+ also serves a role in the maintenance of DNA integrity, but a more important function may be its role in oxidative stress. Zn2+ has long been known to have a protective effect against oxidative stress, not directly as an electron transfer agent, but indirectly by acting as a Lewis acid that accelerates the transfer of electrons during the catalytic activity of Zn2+-binding enzymes.135 Zn2+ binds to cysteines, protecting thiol groups from oxidation. Accumulated endogenous aldehydes react with cysteines, releasing Zn2+ from enzymes, including those involved in ROS and aldehyde detoxification, creating increasing oxidative stress. The frequent deficiencies in sulfur-containing nutrients also contribute to oxidative stress, for which the broadest definition is used: an imbalance between oxidants and antioxidants, in favor of oxidants."
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.4137/NMI.S29531
It also says that retinoic acid is useful for autism because there's a bottleneck preventing the conversion of retinol to retinoic acid. But it stated they don't have the characteristic vitamin A deficiency symptom of night blindness so I'm really wondering if vitamin A is as beneficial as they are claiming. Though many people are giving their autistic children cod liver oil and apparently seeing good effects, I'm just really skeptical of that obviously.
Anyway, I think Garrett Smith is on to something with the ALDH and the toxicity issues we are seeing in our world today which causes all manner of suffering. But he may be wrong on the b vitamins, while pyridoxal is an aldehyde, it's activated form is practically cancelled out by other aldehydes making it unusable, we see that in people with genetic mutations according to this paper and it causes B6 dependent seizures. So we cannot just throw out vitamins just because they are an aldehyde. I'm glad I did some more research on that.
This is one of my favourite papers @janelle525 - so much useful information in it. They get vA a bit upside down (doesn’t everyone) but they realise that retinaldehyde will just add to the aldehyde burden.
I think aldehydes are a huge burden on the body. Garrett Smith is now using an ALDH ‘stand in’ to address this issue. I personally wouldn’t address the issue like this, but from the little I’ve seen he seems to think it works (I’ve not been following this closely though). There is a debate on the safety of this on another thread by Angela B. I prefer to reduce overwhelm and support enzymes. There is part of me, however, that wonders if in my first year of vA detox, where I think aldehydes built up due to high dose vC, there was damage to this system in some way. I don’t know.
Anyway, thanks for highlighting this paper. It’s really worth reading imo.
I hadn't heard about this ALDH stand in, is it a supplement?
Quote from Jenny on June 2, 2022, 1:41 amThis is one of my favourite papers @janelle525 - so much useful information in it. They get vA a bit upside down (doesn’t everyone) but they realise that retinaldehyde will just add to the aldehyde burden.
I think aldehydes are a huge burden on the body. Garrett Smith is now using an ALDH ‘stand in’ to address this issue. I personally wouldn’t address the issue like this, but from the little I’ve seen he seems to think it works (I’ve not been following this closely though). There is a debate on the safety of this on another thread by Angela B. I prefer to reduce overwhelm and support enzymes. There is part of me, however, that wonders if in my first year of vA detox, where I think aldehydes built up due to high dose vC, there was damage to this system in some way. I don’t know.
Anyway, thanks for highlighting this paper. It’s really worth reading imo.
How much vitamin C were you doing? I started taking it back in late 2016 when I came across a lady saying she cured her severe allergic reactions with it, she was doing upwards of 50 grams a day! She now sells it and uses maybe 10-20 grams. I haven't checked up on her in a couple yrs though, she had a baby while using orthomolecular medicine and apparently that baby is super healthy she would post pics and stuff and she seemed to be honest about that. I also seemed to heal my anxiety with it, but it came back with a vengeance late this past yr when I tried dropped down to 500 mg instead of my usual 2-4 grams. I had panic attacks out of the blue which is what I was trying to cure back when I started taking it in 2016. I got better then a couple weeks ago I decided to try reducing again. And again I'm having panic attacks. Which is why I'm back on this forum trying to figure out what's going on.
I am taking more today to see if it really is the vitamin C or not. I do think I have histamine intolerance reactions to food. It's either that or reactive hypoglycemia. Really can't figure it out as I have perfect blood sugar numbers whenever I checked during these episodes. Yesterday I had a small flushing feeling for a split second then an adrenaline reaction after grilled chicken and white rice. Blood sugar was 122 after the meal then during the adrenaline it was 97 which was 3 hours post meal. I had noticed that the flushing feeling and heart palpitations are common when consuming alcohol! But I don't drink at all. So now I have no idea what's going on. I really hope I didn't develop a dependency on vitamin C that makes going off like drug withdrawal. One clue it could be liver/histamines is that when this happens I had to take cyproheptadine which is an old anti-histamine that I really prefer over the newer ones. It really helps me sleep through the night without bad adrenaline attacks. It's known to lower cortisol as well. But then Garrett Smith said antihistamines block up the liver! Back in 2016 I also started taking it for 1.5 yrs and it was hard to get off at that point. Had increased adrenaline trying to get off but I was in a good place emotionally so I did get off. But after a yr on it I had elevated liver enzymes. They are the best they've been in many yrs right now I just had a blood panel done. But my cholesterol is the worst it's ever been!
How would you approach the vitamin C issue? Do I go as slowly as I possibly can? It seems like I have to be careful.
Yes a supplement. See under food and drink. Choline dioxide thread - started by Angela B.
Garrett Smith says that Vit C slows ADH and ALDH so when it’s reduced I guess you could open the floodgates of detox. If you’ve been taking a lot I would wean off slowly.
Thanks for providing the link to the paper on ADH and ALDH activity. When I saw it, I realized I had already looked at it a couple times in the past.
First, it's unclear to me how they assessed ADH and ALDH activity. They say they used the same methods as another paper (Lee et al. 2012) with slight modifications, and Lee et al. 2012 say they used the same methods as another paper (Itoh et al. 1997). Itoh basically extracted the fresh livers from shrews and rats and ran them through a blender with repeated centrifuging, then did some kind of in vitro assessment of ADH and ALDH activity. It looks like Lee did a similar in vitro assessment with mice liver, as well as doing serum measurements of mice with and without ALDH knockouts. The paper you linked to (Srinivasan 2019) doesn't even mention animals in the methods or results though...so, what exactly were they looking at?!
Beyond the questionable in vitro assessment, it's unclear what increased ADH and ALDH activity in the study actually mean. It seems similar to looking at glutathione production following consumption of plant compounds like sulforaphane...an increase in glutathione is due to the body trying to mop up the effects of the toxic plant compounds. Toxin intake = glutathione production. Toxin intake = ADH and ALDH activity.
So, if toxin intake increases ADH and ALDH activity, why did Vitamin C dramatically reduce ADH and ALDH activity in the study? Why did garlic and a number of spices also dramatically reduce ADH and ALDH activity? Why did fruit generally increase ADH but reduce ALDH? There is no real consistent pattern in the data that I can see, and it certainly doesn't line up nicely with the list of foods that Smith claims to have a negative effect on ADH and ALDH, so either the data from this study are useless (in which case Smith can't use them to support his claims), or Smith's reasoning in regards to ADH and ALDH is completely wrong because it doesn't line up with this study.
Personally, I think the data from this study are close to useless, and I think Smith is the ultimate cherry picker who pays no attention whatsoever to study methodology, which is why I don't trust a damn thing he says. I already mentioned that he draws conclusions based on only the abstracts (or sometimes just the titles!), and anybody who knows anything about research manuscripts knows that you can't assume the abstract is a fair representation of the data.
Anyway, it's still possible that excess Vitamin C is problematic for this or another reason (oxalates, oxidative stress), but I don't see valid evidence for anything in this paper.
I don’t disagree with your assessment. However, i know that combining the reduction of vA in the diet with high dose vitamin C made me ill. I felt much better when I stopped the vC. Therefore from my experience it would fit that vC is slowing down something in the vA pathway, leading to some sort of accumulation. Aldehydes fit as they deplete B1 and my symptoms correlated with B1 deficiency. However, just because this theory seems to fit the evidence, does not make it correct!
Quick update after a month:
One of us noticed absolutely nothing at all, and stopped taking massive doses of B1.
The baby's pooping and digestion did seem better, but his sleep went into the toilet - super light sleeping, waking early, not falling asleep till late, not falling asleep for naps... Stopped his tiny dose of B1, and he started sleeping again. Oh well.
My digestion/elimination has definitely been better. I'm continuing to take 1500 mg/day. I went down from 2000mg/day because that large a dose seemed to "stimulating" somehow, can't explain it exactly but I felt I needed to cut down.
The bedwetting child saw no significant reduction in nighttime peeing on average over three weeks, so I decided to add one additional nutrient as per a case study from Overton: Vitamin K. We just worked up to 700mcg/day (in addition to the 2000mcg of B1) over the period of one week, and so far this seems promising. But I'll have to report back later. Interestingly, this child has always suffered from terrible nosebleeds "for no reason." Maybe K could help with this? And another symptom of gut dysbiosis, if this child is lacking in K and B vitamins, right? Because these SHOULD be synthesized by gut flora, if the flora were working properly...
The other frequently-urinating day and night child...has noticed a slight reduction in daytime urination, and a marked decrease in nighttime peeing. This is very welcome!! Seems to be sleeping better too, and waking up feeling refreshed. This child is definitely continuing.
And yet another of us is still not sure if it's doing anything - maybe a little more energy, maybe a bit better sleep - this child will keep trying it for a little while longer, and said child does not like swallowing pills, so that leads me to think maybe it's helping a little??
I'll report back in awhile. 🙂