I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
Wax esters a method of Vitamin A elimination in the form of waxy stool?
@wavygravygadzooks Thanks answering my other question about the Vit C, I wrote out a reply earlier today but it got deleted when I tried to post it.
Well to me it seems to be because those foods put the VA back into storage resulting in cholestasis, when I'm low VA and low fat I had orange stools, going twice daily and bright yellow pee and weight is going up
When I eat the foods I mentioned my pee becomes pale, stools become pale, weight starts dropping rapidly and all my muscles disappear in like a day, face becomes deathly skinny and unhealthy looking which is not good because I'm an underweight type already. The same thing also happens when I eat high Vit A veg like carrots. I have sometimes lost 3-4kg in a day whenever I eat high fat this is concerning to me especially if it could mean cancer as the last two months I was going through periods of bad pancreas pain.
If I eat just beans and meat with very low fat then my weight actually starts going up despite being much lower in calories, and stools eventually return to a normal colour, but as soon as I eat high fat and high protein then my weight just drops despite being much higher in calories.
My gallbladder went wrong in May, I stopped being able to tolerate basically all fats, however milk chocolate, yogurt and beef tallow I was able to tolerate with no gallbladder pain and made me feel good, they also made the skin on my hands look so much better which now is a big sign to me they're storing Vit A in the liver.
The trouble I was having a month ago was certain things like zinc in tiny does or having red meat would give me extreme fat cravings where I would eat something like 3 jars of 170 grams of almond butter in one evening. Every time I've done that my stools went pale, had pancreas pain and started losing weight fast.
Yesterday I had 250g of milk chocolate and my weight has started dropping again rapidly and face looks very skinny from eating the chocolate, I ate the chocolate because the detox was too much from all the beans I was eating, didn't have any fat that day and I was also in need of calcium.
Uh oh, yeah, I've had a number of posts get deleted when I tried to submit them. I've started copying them before hitting the Submit button. It has something to do with web page needing to be refreshed before hitting Submit.
How on earth can you lose 3-4 kg in a day while eating? Are you exercising or sweating like crazy? The only way I know that you could lose that much weight in a day is by losing a ton of water and taking a massive shit.
It sounds like you prescribe to Garrett Smith's ideas. You probably know how I feel about him from my other posts, but his ideas are not trustworthy. The whole "shoving Vitamin A back into the liver" and causing cholestasis does not make sense. Vitamin A comes out in the bile...why would the body STOP bile output when it needs it the most? Smith's ideas are full of contradictions, extreme conjectures, and outright fallacies.
What do you mean when you say "the detox was too much?" What are the symptoms you're attributing to detox?
Forgive me for being skeptical, but I've spent enough time on oxalate and Vitamin A forums to know that people can be way too confident in attributing cause and effect. I'm a research biologist, I've been logging my food intake and symptoms for over 5 years now, and I still can't find consistent cause and effect relationships. Biology is very complex and our knowledge of the body is still pretty shallow despite everything we've learned.
I don't agree with some of GS ideas but the Vit A and high fat diets causing cholestasis and fats binding to toxins to store in the liver he is absolutely correct on, chocolate is high in stearic and palmitic acid and milk chocolate also contains some Vit A. These types of fatty acids bind to retinol and create retinyl esters as you will know. While I do agree with you some fat is helpful for toxin excretion (eg fat from animal meat), high consumption of certain fats like when I eat lots of chocolate or almond butter just stores VA and toxins in the liver for me and shuts off my bile flow.
When I eat milk chocolate or high fat, my stools go very pale, start losing weight rapidly, bowel movement frequency drastically reduced, urine pale instead of bright yellow like when I'm detoxing Vit A, stools stop going orange like when i'm detoxing VA, however autistic symptoms, brain fog, low energy will disappear, VA skin symptoms on hands and legs also disappear. When I eat other certain other fats I actually get get in increase in these bad symptoms because the other fats do trigger bile dumping where as the milk chocolate does the opposite and shuts off bile flow.
Eating fruit, caffeine or sugary things do not give me these same effects of reducing detox symptoms or shutting off detox like the milk chocolate does so I attribute a lot of it to the type of fat and VA that milk chocolate contains which shut off bile flow.
Where is all this fat going if I'm losing weight and not having regular bowel movements, it must be to the liver, my face looks very sick when this I go on these chocolate or fat binges (obviously the sugar pays a big part in this when I'm eating chocolate)
When I do have bowel movements there are no signs of undigested fat like floating stool either.
Another thing that happened when I ate a lot of chocolate on the detox was I was suddenly able to tolerate high Vit A veg again and didn't feel disgusted by the idea of something like carrots, and instead I craved them, probably because I had less Vit A in the blood now and more in the liver but I was only able to last one or a couple of days eating the high carotenoid veg before the bad effects become too much.
Eventually after eating the chocolate the bile flow is resumed again which could be a few hours or the next day or two and the VA that is let out and hits me much harder than before I ate the chocolate, so I will get bad symptoms like eye pain, tinnitus , neuropathy, all the sugar from the chocolate clearly lowers my protection against the VA coming out.
In July/August I was eating a extremely high carotenoid diet (Dr Wilson inspired) where I was having maybe 4-5 carrots with every meal and also butternut squash on some of the meals, my skin was turning yellow and in the end I started getting bad gallbladder pain from fats so it was clear it was causing cholestasis even though I felt great. In the end I took TUDCA and Nattokinase with a high carotenoid meal lots of carrots, orange butternut squash and kidney beans and this caused my stomach to become severely inflamed, so I guess it caused some type of retinoid dump, or caused me to absorb too many carotenoids from my meal, I'm not sure... But since that day I stopped tolerating high Vit A veg without getting high blood sugar symptoms.
Since my gallbladder stopped functioning in May milk chocolate was one of the only fats that I could tolerate, the rest would cause bad gallbladder pain, when going low Vit A my bile flow improved and I could tolerate other fats again without the gallbladder pain but they will trigger bile dumping symptoms.
You started by claiming that Smith was right that all fats high in stearic and palmitic acid cause cholestasis, that therefore chocolate causes you cholestasis, and "high fat" causes you cholestasis, but that other fats (animal fats?) don't cause cholestasis for you and actually increase bile flow. Those are contradictory statements. Which is it?
I have never recommended eating a bunch of chocolate or nut butter. I don't honestly know if there is a potential for those to aggravate liver problems, but it's highly unnatural (particularly almond butter), and I wouldn't doubt they would mess with the liver somehow. You really can't attribute your reactions to the fats based on your experience, both chocolate and almond butter contain a bunch of potentially problematic compounds like oxalates. But even if it is the fats in those foods that are causing your problem, my contention has been that eating a carnivore diet is the optimal path to recovery, and that animal fats (primarily fats from healthy ruminants eating a natural diet) contribute to recovery rather than hindering it like Smith claims, NOT that binging on chocolate and almond butter is beneficial.
I don't think Smith is "absolutely correct" about anything...close on some things perhaps, by sheer chance, but not this. Just because these particular fatty acids are a component of retinyl ester doesn't mean the presence of these fatty acids CAUSES retinyl ester deposition in the liver. That's the same kind of idiocy that has led to all the "LDL causes atherosclerosis" bullshit. If these fatty acids precipitated retinyl esters from Vitamin A on contact, as you seem to be implying, then people on a high-fat carnivore diet wouldn't have any Vitamin A in their blood, would they? Also, from what I've seen in the literature, cholestasis is more commonly associated with Vitamin A DEFICIENCY than with toxicity, and is associated with jaundice, so if you're not jaundiced and you have no labwork that indicates cholestasis directly, then these claims of cholestasis are pretty unfounded.
You’re twisting my words, “You started by claiming that Smith was right that all fats high in stearic and palmitic acid cause cholestasis” - I never said this, I said high fat diets can cause cholestasis. You were saying how shoving Vit A back into liver and causing cholestasis didn’t make sense to you, so I suggested the proposed mechanism of stearic and palmitic acid binding to retinol to make esters. I also never said that’s the only factor that could cause cholestasis from eating those fats, the milk chocolate also contains Vit A and contains a lot of sugar which would slow down ALDH, the almond butter is high in Vitamin E which would slow down bile flow and possibly increase storage of Vit A. The milk chocolate instantly shuts of bile flow for me, where as the almond butter seemed to help with excretion on the first day or two but then if I ate it more than the I would get to a point where my stools became very pale from it and I wouldn’t be going regularly
You also misunderstood me again, I said: “I do agree with you some fat is helpful for toxin excretion (eg fat from animal meat)” what I meant by this is if the amount of fat you would get from if you were eating 10% fat ground beef or chicken would be much smaller compared to eating 2-250 grams of fat per day from chocolate, nut butters etc. We all need fat to function and I do think in smaller amounts it can aid with toxin excretion. The meat also has half the amount of stearic and palmitic acid content then milk chocolate does, plus doesn't have the Vit A and sugar that milk chocolate does.
“But that other fats (animal fats?) don't cause cholestasis for you and actually increase bile flow” - When on very low Vit A, fats like Brazil nuts, Virgin Olive oil or any other fats that known to trigger bile release, just 1-3 Brazil nuts or one spoon of EVOO would cause a big increase in the detox symptoms for me. Where as things like chocolate which contained much much larger amounts of fat stopped the detox symptoms.
Milk chocolate is actually low in oxalates, I also never said you recommended eating chocolate or almond butter.
I do have evidence of high fat causing cholestasis, when I eat high fat, my skin does go yellowish and I also look deathly pale and unhealthy and have rapid weight loss and itchiness, liver pain and anger, pale stools. Same thing happens when I eat carotenoids, or other high Vit A foods. Going low Vit A and low fat I saw chronic gallbladder pain disappear, stools normalise, and able to tolerate fats much better once going low Vit A so it was pretty obvious to me Vit A toxicity in my liver was causing cholestasis .
Yes I can eat certain high fat foods like chocolate for a few days and feel better temporarily from shutting off bile flow which makes my liver and gallbladder sicker but when bile flow is resumed it hits my like a shit ton of bricks and the symptoms are much more extreme and damaging. than before I ate the fats.
We all have Biochemical individuality so carnivore may be helpful for you, but it certainly wouldn’t be helpful for me, as I’m having issues with red meat due to the iron content currently. I also had a test done 2 years ago which said: “The levels of one or both dietary peptides anserine and/or carnosine are markedly elevated in this urine specimen, indicating incomplete digestion of anserine-containing meats (chicken, turkey, duck, rabbit, tuna and salmon) and/or carnosine-containing meats (beef, pork, tuna and salmon).” This made sense as I was getting autistic symptoms, speech issues, bad brain fog neurotransmitter issues from meat 2 years ago. After working on my gut a year ago with antimicrobials, probiotics, digestive enzymes, Vitamins and minerals for HCL production I was able to tolerate it again but I still would never be able to go carnivore nor would I want to as I don’t think it's an ideal diet.
“I don't think Smith is "absolutely correct" about anything...close on some things perhaps, by sheer chance, but not this. Just because these particular fatty acids are a component of retinyl ester doesn't mean the presence of these fatty acids CAUSES retinyl ester deposition in the liver. That's the same kind of idiocy that has led to all the "LDL causes atherosclerosis" bullshit. ' - You seem to be heavily focusing on the retinyl ester thing in a very black and white way, I briefly mentioned it as a possible mechanism and I never made made outright claims like you are suggesting I have eg “Smith was right that all fats high in stearic and palmitic acid cause cholestasis”. - I don't think Smith thinks this either this is what he said:
"Retinyl esters are the main “storage form” of VA.
-
When you eat “animal VA”, you are eating retinyl esters for the most part, with only a small amount of retinol. It is amazing how WRONG certain people out there are, stating that retinOL is the main form in animal foods. It is NOT.
-
Note where eaten retinyl esters enter the system.
-
Retinyl esters can enter the VA Detox system from eating them in animal foods, supplements, or when they come out of storage.
-
-
Retinyl esters are a retinol molecule bound to a free fatty acid.
-
Retinol + palmitic acid = retinyl palmitate, main retinyl ester found in the liver
-
Retinol + stearic acid = retinyl stearate, main retinyl ester found in the blood
-
-
Retinyl esters are toxic. If more than 5% of the blood VA is made up of retinyl esters (the other 95% being retinol), then that is a diagnosis of hypervitaminosis A."
"If these fatty acids precipitated retinyl esters from Vitamin A on contact, as you seem to be implying, then people on a high-fat carnivore diet wouldn't have any Vitamin A in their blood, would they?" - No point in me replying to this as you have misunderstood what I said.
"Also, from what I've seen in the literature, cholestasis is more commonly associated with Vitamin A DEFICIENCY than with toxicity' Well Vit A toxicity in the liver can cause cholestasis which would mean low bile flow and output meaning less absorption of Vit A from food. There was actually a case on Pubmed with someone who had Vit A deficiency went on low VA diet for a few months and his VA levels shot up 3-5x, I think GS also regularly see this with some of his clients. However unlike Grant and GS I do think VA deficiency is real and can be an issue for some people, not just those who are malnourished.
It's kind of hard to debate you when you take one or two things I mentioned, misconstrue them and make it whole the focus of your reply.
I do have evidence of high fat causing cholestasis, when I eat high fat, my skin does go yellowish and I also look deathly pale and unhealthy and have rapid weight loss and itchiness, liver pain and anger, pale stools. Same thing happens when I eat carotenoids, or other high Vit A foods. Going low Vit A and low fat I saw chronic gallbladder pain disappear, stools normalise, and able to tolerate fats much better once going low Vit A so it was pretty obvious to me Vit A toxicity in my liver was causing cholestasis .
I was not aware that your skin was turning yellow and that you were getting itching from eating some of these things. Those two symptoms are much more diagnostic of cholestasis than the others you were listing, so based on that I don't doubt that you are experiencing cholestasis.
It's kind of hard to debate you when you take one or two things I mentioned, misconstrue them and make it whole the focus of your reply.
Maybe you should write in such as a way as to make it difficult to misunderstand you.
“You started by claiming that Smith was right that all fats high in stearic and palmitic acid cause cholestasis” - I never said this, I said high fat diets can cause cholestasis. You were saying how shoving Vit A back into liver and causing cholestasis didn’t make sense to you, so I suggested the proposed mechanism of stearic and palmitic acid binding to retinol to make esters.
Smith says (1) retinyl esters are toxic, (2) palmitic and stearic acid shove Vitamin A back into the liver, and (3) Vitamin A in the liver causes cholestasis. Ergo, Smith says that all foods high in palmitic and stearic acid cause cholestasis. And you seem to be agreeing with Smith on this, no?
My objection to this idea is that you need bile flow to eliminate Vitamin A from the liver, and the body should not STOP bile flow in response to an INCREASED toxin load in the liver, that makes no sense. That would quickly lead to a downward spiral where more Vitamin A in the liver causes more cholestasis, which causes more Vitamin A accumulation in the liver, which causes more cholestasis...see? The body appears to downregulate bile ACID production in response to Vitamin A accumulation in the liver in order to prevent more Vitamin A absorption in the intestines, but it does not reduce bile FLOW to and out of the gallbladder...if anything, it increases bile flow and and bile acid dumping into the colon in the presence of Vitamin A accumulation.
I also never said that’s the only factor that could cause cholestasis from eating those fats, the milk chocolate also contains Vit A and contains a lot of sugar which would slow down ALDH, the almond butter is high in Vitamin E which would slow down bile flow and possibly increase storage of Vit A. The milk chocolate instantly shuts of bile flow for me, where as the almond butter seemed to help with excretion on the first day or two but then if I ate it more than the I would get to a point where my stools became very pale from it and I wouldn’t be going regularly.
Sugar slowing ALDH and Vitamin E slowing bile flow are assumptions made by Smith. Maybe they are correct, maybe they aren't. Personally, I don't think Vitamin E is causing any problems unless you're constantly supplementing, and I'm not sure to what extent fructose might actually slow ALDH and impact Vitamin A dumping.
You also misunderstood me again, I said: “I do agree with you some fat is helpful for toxin excretion (eg fat from animal meat)” what I meant by this is if the amount of fat you would get from if you were eating 10% fat ground beef or chicken would be much smaller compared to eating 2-250 grams of fat per day from chocolate, nut butters etc. We all need fat to function and I do think in smaller amounts it can aid with toxin excretion. The meat also has half the amount of stearic and palmitic acid content then milk chocolate does, plus doesn't have the Vit A and sugar that milk chocolate does.
Holy shit, 250 grams of fat from chocolate and nut butter?! Yeah, no wonder you're feeling fucked up, jeezus.
“But that other fats (animal fats?) don't cause cholestasis for you and actually increase bile flow” - When on very low Vit A, fats like Brazil nuts, Virgin Olive oil or any other fats that known to trigger bile release, just 1-3 Brazil nuts or one spoon of EVOO would cause a big increase in the detox symptoms for me. Where as things like chocolate which contained much much larger amounts of fat stopped the detox symptoms.
ALL fat triggers bile release from the gallbladder and should therefore increase bile flow from the liver to the gallbladder to replace released bile acids. In fact, saturated animal fats are more difficult to emulsify and should therefore require MORE bile acid (and more bile) to be released than unsaturated fats in nuts and olive oil.
Milk chocolate is actually low in oxalates, I also never said you recommended eating chocolate or almond butter.
Milk chocolate is high to extremely high in oxalates based on the Trying Low Oxalates database, which has a whole section dedicated to just chocolates and carob. Not sure where you got the idea it was low, but if you found it on some random website it's probably a bad data source.
Yes I can eat certain high fat foods like chocolate for a few days and feel better temporarily from shutting off bile flow which makes my liver and gallbladder sicker but when bile flow is resumed it hits my like a shit ton of bricks and the symptoms are much more extreme and damaging. than before I ate the fats.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here again? Shutting off bile flow = cholestasis. How would cholestasis make you feel better temporarily when it is causing jaundice, itching, and all the other symptoms you attribute to it? Makes no sense.
We all have Biochemical individuality so carnivore may be helpful for you, but it certainly wouldn’t be helpful for me, as I’m having issues with red meat due to the iron content currently. I also had a test done 2 years ago which said: “The levels of one or both dietary peptides anserine and/or carnosine are markedly elevated in this urine specimen, indicating incomplete digestion of anserine-containing meats (chicken, turkey, duck, rabbit, tuna and salmon) and/or carnosine-containing meats (beef, pork, tuna and salmon).” This made sense as I was getting autistic symptoms, speech issues, bad brain fog neurotransmitter issues from meat 2 years ago. After working on my gut a year ago with antimicrobials, probiotics, digestive enzymes, Vitamins and minerals for HCL production I was able to tolerate it again but I still would never be able to go carnivore nor would I want to as I don’t think it's an ideal diet.
How do you know the iron in meat is causing problems? If you have peptides in your urine, then they were obviously digested and absorbed from the intestine, otherwise they couldn't be in the urine. Maybe the test results meant that you were not able to use those peptides properly once in the body?
“I don't think Smith is "absolutely correct" about anything...close on some things perhaps, by sheer chance, but not this. Just because these particular fatty acids are a component of retinyl ester doesn't mean the presence of these fatty acids CAUSES retinyl ester deposition in the liver. That's the same kind of idiocy that has led to all the "LDL causes atherosclerosis" bullshit. ' - You seem to be heavily focusing on the retinyl ester thing in a very black and white way, I briefly mentioned it as a possible mechanism and I never made made outright claims like you are suggesting I have eg “Smith was right that all fats high in stearic and palmitic acid cause cholestasis”. - I don't think Smith thinks this either
I'm the one making this black and white?! lol No, that would be Smith who makes everything black and white and doesn't seem to understand the concept of nuance and context dependency. With Smith, things are either toxic and killing you, or they are your liver's savior.
"Also, from what I've seen in the literature, cholestasis is more commonly associated with Vitamin A DEFICIENCY than with toxicity' Well Vit A toxicity in the liver can cause cholestasis which would mean low bile flow and output meaning less absorption of Vit A from food. There was actually a case on Pubmed with someone who had Vit A deficiency went on low VA diet for a few months and his VA levels shot up 3-5x, I think GS also regularly see this with some of his clients. However unlike Grant and GS I do think VA deficiency is real and can be an issue for some people, not just those who are malnourished.
Where is the evidence for Vitamin A causing cholestasis?! I've never seen any definitive evidence of this, as far as I can tell this is something that Smith just made up. Depending on how deficiency was defined in that case study (most likely low serum levels), it was likely a problem with protein deficiency and lack of RBPs to mobilize Vitamin A from the liver into the blood to circulate it throughout the body. That would mean a functional deficiency, not an absolute deficiency. What does that have to do with cholestasis though? Did the person in case study have cholestasis? I doubt it.
My objection to this idea is that you need bile flow to eliminate Vitamin A from the liver, and the body should not STOP bile flow in response to an INCREASED toxin load in the liver, that makes no sense. That would quickly lead to a downward spiral where more Vitamin A in the liver causes more cholestasis, which causes more Vitamin A accumulation in the liver, which causes more cholestasis...see? The body appears to downregulate bile ACID production in response to Vitamin A accumulation in the liver in order to prevent more Vitamin A absorption in the intestines, but it does not reduce bile FLOW to and out of the gallbladder...if anything, it increases bile flow and and bile acid dumping into the colon in the presence of Vitamin A accumulation.
Yes well you should know that there are things outside of the body's control that prevent bile leaving the gallbladder eg : gallstone obstruction, heavy metals, mold, pathogens, dysbiosis of the gallbladder, Vit A, carotenoids and if there is cholestasis in the liver which some of these things also cause then this can prevent bile ever getting to the gallbladder. There are also certain bacteria strains that feed on bile and this would contribute to a bile deficiency.
You say things like human biology is complex which I agree with but then make general assumptions that our bodies can just increase bile flow out and to the gallbladder in presence of excess Vit A.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8340533/ -A correlation between carotenemia and biliary dyskinesia
"Biliary dyskinesia is a functional gallbladder disorder. It affects your gallbladder’s motility — its ability to move bile out into your bile ducts. More rarely, the motility disorder affects the small muscle (sphincter) located where your bile conduit empties into your intestine. Reduced motility can cause bile to back up into your gallbladder, just as if it were obstructed by a gallstone. Biliary dyskinesia is diagnosed when no other cause can explain your symptoms."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022519300921027 - Possible Role of Endogenous Retinoid (Vitamin A) Toxicity in the Pathophysiology of Primary Biliary Cirrhosis- Anthony Mawson
"Primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC) is a chronic, cholestatic disease of unknown etiology commonly affecting women. It is characterized by progressive destruction of the small intrahepatic bile ducts and portal inflammation, leading to fibrosis and cirrhosis."
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19944093/
Hypervitaminosis A inducing intra-hepatic cholestasis--a rare case report
You clearly don't have liver or gallbladder issues so no wonder you're dismissing this theory about high fat diets causing cholestasis as you're not able to experience it and see how obvious it is for yourself. I'm sure people on this forum who have liver or gallbladder issues would agree with this theory and about how Vit A toxicity causes cholestasis.
Aren't you contradicting yourself here again? Shutting off bile flow = cholestasis. How would cholestasis make you feel better temporarily when it is causing jaundice, itching, and all the other symptoms you attribute to it? Makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense to me and others who have gallbladder or liver issues, you don't seem to understand when bile flow is normalised my liver starts dumping heavy metals, vit A, other toxins which can get into the blood stream, other organs like my brain, this causes me extreme autistic symptoms, confusion, neurotoxicity symptoms like shakiness, neuropathy, rashes, copper toxicity symptoms. The liver is much more equipped to handle these toxins than other organs in the body are. Eating the certain high fat foods that i mentioned before stops all these bad symptoms I mentioned above and its quite clear to me a lot of that is getting sent to the liver as I'm losing weight, have pale face, barely passing stools, pale stools, and if I continue to eat these things for a long period of time the symptoms will develop more into itchiness, yellow skin etc but I still feel a lot better than if I have the symptoms I first mentioned.
No I do not get jaundice when I eat chocolate once or twice, but if I eat high carotenoids, or high fat for a long period of time, symptoms like itchiness will appear very gradually, face starts looking sicker and sicker very pale, stools pale, and not passing stools regularly.
"How do you know the iron in meat is causing problems? If you have peptides in your urine, then they were obviously digested and absorbed from the intestine, otherwise they couldn't be in the urine. Maybe the test results meant that you were not able to use those peptides properly once in the body?"
Because it's only red meat and not chicken, when I eat other high iron foods I get the same bad symptoms, when I increase stomach acid with supplements it makes my issues with high iron foods worse, and it is known that excess iron in acidic environments can cause blood sugar issues which happens to me. My ferritin levels were also at 300, when I've had things that increase ceruloplasmin (eg Morely Robbins suggestions) made me tolerate high iron foods and red meat better. Iron also feeds pathogens so that is another issue for me.
ALL fat triggers bile release from the gallbladder and should therefore increase bile flow from the liver to the gallbladder to replace released bile acids. In fact, saturated animal fats are more difficult to emulsify and should therefore require MORE bile acid (and more bile) to be released than unsaturated fats in nuts and olive oil.
I mean you're just completely wrong here about all fats triggering bile release, if only I could switch bodies with you for a week and then you would realise. Milk chocolate contains Vit A, high in palmitic and stearic acids, high fat content, low fiber, high in sugar all I think contribute to slowing down/ shutting off bile release/production. If you accepted the theory of VA toxicity causing cholestasis and how things high in palmitic and stearic acids could make this issue worse, then your statement about all fats triggering bile release would be wrong. Another thing which could happen is chocolate could be feeding pathogens or mold in the gallbladder which would interfere with bile flow and release.
All fats cause bile release?: "Because your body absorbs MCTs much quicker than it does LCTs, MCT oil can act as fast and effective brain fuel. Unlike with LCT oils, your body doesn’t have to use bile to break down MCT oil. Therefore, it goes straight from your gut to your liver to be used for energy right away."
Anyway I don't enjoy these combative style debates on online forums its a waste of time and energy, I'm here to get better, not here to argue with people. Hence why I don't use things like reddit where it seems everyone enjoys arguing in this type of way over there. As you said you have a personal hatred for Smith, therefore you will have a strong bias against accepting any of his theories as true. You seem pretty convinced in your views on this topic so it's a waste of my time trying to convince you otherwise.
https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/0016-5085(82)90132-9/pdf - Here is the study showing liver toxic VA and serum deficiency and VA serum levels going high after 10 weeks after low VA diet.
@jessica2 Well interestingly enough when my gallbladder first went badly wrong I was using a liposomal D3 and k2 supplement that contained phosphatidylcholine which seemed to be extremely helpful at reducing the negative symptoms I got from fat and meat. And when I first started low VA it was also helping my reactions to red meat. I had tried other choline and phosphatidylchline supplements but none of those seemed to help me like this one.
However midway through the VA detox the liposomal d3 and k2 supplement started making my symptoms from fat a lot worse, and now I would get really bad pancreas pain, fast heart rate and confusion, but if I had the fat without it then I wouldn't get those symptoms.
Now it seems every time I take it, it always cause me confusion which is concerning and I've tried other Vitamin D supplements and had the same reaction.
Now I wonder if it originally helped me because it was keeping the VA trapped in the liver/gallbladder and the choline was slowing down bile flow to stop the VA getting out.
And now maybe too much VA is in other parts of my body and it is mobilising it. I did see a study that Vitamin D supplements worsened the progression of Alzheimer's. The confusion I get from taking it now is bad as if I have Alzheimer's.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35822270/
I've tried other supplements that increase choline since I've started this VA detox and I now react negatively to them when before I didn't eg: ALCAR, phosphatidylserine, phosphatidylcholine, TMG.
"Here is the study showing liver toxic VA and serum deficiency and VA serum levels going high after 10 weeks after low VA diet."
Yeah, I've discussed that paper numerous times on this forum. What point were you wanting to make with it? I've lost track with all the back and forth.
I'm working on a response to your other post, lots to review with those papers you mentioned...