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What can we learn from B6 toxicity recovery?
Quote from
Jenny on December 30, 2019, 4:01 am
This is what Dr Derrick Lonsdale has to say about B6 in his thiamine deficiency book:
‘Finally, pyridoxal kinase and pyridoxine 5′-phosphate oxidase are two enzymes responsible for converting dietary vitamin B6 into the active cofactor form pyridoxal 5′-phosphate (PLP). PLP is active in over 140 enzymatic reactions throughout the body, including within the ETC of the mitochondria. 87 Pyridoxal kinase is downregulated with thiamine deficiency84 contributing to reduced ETC efficiency and diminished ATP. Additionally, because of its role in tryptophan degradation, diminished PLP produces several metabolites that are neurotoxic, including quinolinic acid. 88’
Deficiency of B1 seems a likely candidate for B6 problems in some people I would think??
This is what Dr Derrick Lonsdale has to say about B6 in his thiamine deficiency book:
‘Finally, pyridoxal kinase and pyridoxine 5′-phosphate oxidase are two enzymes responsible for converting dietary vitamin B6 into the active cofactor form pyridoxal 5′-phosphate (PLP). PLP is active in over 140 enzymatic reactions throughout the body, including within the ETC of the mitochondria. 87 Pyridoxal kinase is downregulated with thiamine deficiency84 contributing to reduced ETC efficiency and diminished ATP. Additionally, because of its role in tryptophan degradation, diminished PLP produces several metabolites that are neurotoxic, including quinolinic acid. 88’
Deficiency of B1 seems a likely candidate for B6 problems in some people I would think??
Quote from
Sarabeth on December 30, 2019, 11:46 am
It's interesting - I too was extremely averse to supplementing...but the sicker we got, the more desperate I became, and eventually, high doses of zinc/b6 seemed a lot better than mental-un-health-left-untreated, and definitely better than zoloft/paxil/down the medication rabbit hole. And yet "pyroluria" is certainly not, as several of you mentioned, a root cause resolution!
I have great hope due to our improvements thus far on a low A diet, and so I think I'll try to slowly wean us off the B6...possibly expecting some bumps/symptoms-to-return-for-a-visit along the way. It makes sense that a sort of dependency could result from five years of taking such high doses. I'll keep you all posted!
It's interesting - I too was extremely averse to supplementing...but the sicker we got, the more desperate I became, and eventually, high doses of zinc/b6 seemed a lot better than mental-un-health-left-untreated, and definitely better than zoloft/paxil/down the medication rabbit hole. And yet "pyroluria" is certainly not, as several of you mentioned, a root cause resolution!
I have great hope due to our improvements thus far on a low A diet, and so I think I'll try to slowly wean us off the B6...possibly expecting some bumps/symptoms-to-return-for-a-visit along the way. It makes sense that a sort of dependency could result from five years of taking such high doses. I'll keep you all posted!
Quote from
Carbon on January 29, 2020, 2:38 pm
Some years ago I read stories about B6 poisoning, I never experienced the effects myself but since I avoid supplements with added B6. After some bad results with mega-doses of other supplements I realized it is better to take supplements in moderation and preferably as a low-dosed multivitamin.
Reading the replies I like the phrase Tim posted: " toxicity symptoms are the same as deficiency symptoms is because toxicity is deficiency". So any supplement taken in isolation and/or in an overdoses can cause the same symptoms as where you took the supplement for in the first place.
I had been on low VA for nine months but after initial improvements there was no further progress. On the contrary my eyesight deteriorated gradually and it didn't cure my RA either. Finally I decided to return to a normal diet three months ago. Of course still avoiding supplements with VA - but just healthy food regardless of the beta carotene and the VA content. My eyesight improved again. Apparently I just need a little bit VA. Not all people are the same.
Some years ago I read stories about B6 poisoning, I never experienced the effects myself but since I avoid supplements with added B6. After some bad results with mega-doses of other supplements I realized it is better to take supplements in moderation and preferably as a low-dosed multivitamin.
Reading the replies I like the phrase Tim posted: " toxicity symptoms are the same as deficiency symptoms is because toxicity is deficiency". So any supplement taken in isolation and/or in an overdoses can cause the same symptoms as where you took the supplement for in the first place.
I had been on low VA for nine months but after initial improvements there was no further progress. On the contrary my eyesight deteriorated gradually and it didn't cure my RA either. Finally I decided to return to a normal diet three months ago. Of course still avoiding supplements with VA - but just healthy food regardless of the beta carotene and the VA content. My eyesight improved again. Apparently I just need a little bit VA. Not all people are the same.
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Quote from
Neilky on January 30, 2020, 10:56 am
@carbon thanks for sharing your experience.
@carbon thanks for sharing your experience.
Quote from
lil chick on January 31, 2020, 6:22 am
Regarding stopped progression, I personally sometimes wonder how much of the damage that has been done by VA overload is permanent. If not permanent, at least quite slow to fix. Seemingly permanent. 😉
Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise that the status of my healing is "as clear as the nose on my face"... However, I can see that although my face isn't FIXED it is DIFFERENT. Pustules still rise up, but some now turn into scabs. That never happened before. It makes me think about whether that is happening internally too. Scabbing inside joints or in an intestine might feel yucky.
A lot of the VA foods are quite healthy foods, and I think returning to an almost normal (albeit, careful) diet might be just the ticket after a while. I prob won't ever eat orange veggies or liver again, though! I also doubt I will return to eating 6 eggs a day.
Regarding stopped progression, I personally sometimes wonder how much of the damage that has been done by VA overload is permanent. If not permanent, at least quite slow to fix. Seemingly permanent. 😉
Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise that the status of my healing is "as clear as the nose on my face"... However, I can see that although my face isn't FIXED it is DIFFERENT. Pustules still rise up, but some now turn into scabs. That never happened before. It makes me think about whether that is happening internally too. Scabbing inside joints or in an intestine might feel yucky.
A lot of the VA foods are quite healthy foods, and I think returning to an almost normal (albeit, careful) diet might be just the ticket after a while. I prob won't ever eat orange veggies or liver again, though! I also doubt I will return to eating 6 eggs a day.
Quote from
joshz on February 3, 2020, 11:53 am
@lil-chick You must be a strong woman to eat 6 eggs a day! haha. Even in my bodybuilding days I don't think I exceeded 5! Good call on the orange foods and liver I think. I plan on doing the same here. The only one I miss is papaya. Oh sweet papaya.... And maybe a little mango 😉
@lil-chick You must be a strong woman to eat 6 eggs a day! haha. Even in my bodybuilding days I don't think I exceeded 5! Good call on the orange foods and liver I think. I plan on doing the same here. The only one I miss is papaya. Oh sweet papaya.... And maybe a little mango 😉
Quote from
Neilky on February 11, 2020, 2:01 pm
@carbon I wonder if the inclusion of beta carotene has paradoxically antagonised retinoids in your system as discussed in this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3346154/
@carbon I wonder if the inclusion of beta carotene has paradoxically antagonised retinoids in your system as discussed in this study:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3346154/
Quote from
Carbon on February 13, 2020, 8:33 am
@Neilky,
From the study: "long chain β-apocarotenals are found in the plasma of humans and that these are increased under conditions of oxidative stress and high dietary doses of β-carotene".
My dietary dose of β-carotene is moderate; I don't eat carrots or other food that is high in β-carotene. As I have arthritis (RA) and exercise a lot my oxidative stress will be more than average.
But I can't tell if that has a significant effect on the retinoids in my system.
I have had a period where I took megadosis vitamin D3 (2oK ie/day) combined with K2. To my knowledge D3 depletes VA. I didn't observe any changes in eyesight at that time, but of course if it deteriorates slowly you won't notice it immediately. The megadosis D3 actually improved a lot of things (strength, stamina, body temperature, bones & joints). But I stopped the mega dosing when lab test came back with an "above high" reading. The lab didn't test for VA but it must have been pretty low at that time.
@Neilky,
From the study: "long chain β-apocarotenals are found in the plasma of humans and that these are increased under conditions of oxidative stress and high dietary doses of β-carotene".
My dietary dose of β-carotene is moderate; I don't eat carrots or other food that is high in β-carotene. As I have arthritis (RA) and exercise a lot my oxidative stress will be more than average.
But I can't tell if that has a significant effect on the retinoids in my system.
I have had a period where I took megadosis vitamin D3 (2oK ie/day) combined with K2. To my knowledge D3 depletes VA. I didn't observe any changes in eyesight at that time, but of course if it deteriorates slowly you won't notice it immediately. The megadosis D3 actually improved a lot of things (strength, stamina, body temperature, bones & joints). But I stopped the mega dosing when lab test came back with an "above high" reading. The lab didn't test for VA but it must have been pretty low at that time.
Quote from
Sarabeth on February 18, 2020, 5:02 pm
I have been trying to find a B complex for a family member that does not contain B6, but that seems impossible... Has anyone seen any information about short-term (~3-6 months) supplementation with 50mg B6 (contained in a b complex) - would that be heading into the neurotoxic territory?
I have been trying to find a B complex for a family member that does not contain B6, but that seems impossible... Has anyone seen any information about short-term (~3-6 months) supplementation with 50mg B6 (contained in a b complex) - would that be heading into the neurotoxic territory?
I'm not sure where you're located but I found this B complex with lower dose B's. (I'm in the US)
https://www.seekinghealth.com/products/b-complex-plus-100-capsules
I'm going to try this one and add extra Thiamin and Riboflavin. I see the need for the B1 & B2 but I'm worried about balancing them with the other B's since they all seem to work so synergistically. Dr. Smith keeps saying he feels half are for some.people and the other half for other types, but I haven't seen him expand on this and it really doesn't make sense to me.... Sorry all that wasn't what you were asking but what's been on my mind 😉
I'm not sure where you're located but I found this B complex with lower dose B's. (I'm in the US)
https://www.seekinghealth.com/products/b-complex-plus-100-capsules
I'm going to try this one and add extra Thiamin and Riboflavin. I see the need for the B1 & B2 but I'm worried about balancing them with the other B's since they all seem to work so synergistically. Dr. Smith keeps saying he feels half are for some.people and the other half for other types, but I haven't seen him expand on this and it really doesn't make sense to me.... Sorry all that wasn't what you were asking but what's been on my mind 😉
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