Quote from Navid on January 22, 2026, 7:11 am

This is an interesting question. I've been thinking along the lines of trying to understand things in terms of pros vs. cons, or beneficial properties vs. harmful properties.

So for example, carotenoids are a broad class of pigment molecules which are synthesized by plants, and they have some harmful properties (at least under certain circumstances). I don't think anyone would disagree with that statement. They also might have some beneficial properties; certainly it seems that they serve a purpose to plants, but the benefit to humans is less clear.

I know this isn't the main subject of your post, but I'm just curious what your opinion is on vitamin A / carotenoids in general. Do you think they have any benefits to humans? Given how ubiquitous they are in nature, and given the fact that we store some carotenoids but not others, I've been grappling with trying to understand the bigger picture. Personally, I believe in a Most Merciful God who created the universe, so it's been difficult to grapple with the idea that a large number of the foods people have been consuming for millennia are laced with "poison", if we consider vitamin A to be poison in the same way that arsenic and lead are poisons.

Quote from Joe2 on January 22, 2026, 9:43 pm

You might be confusing the reality of Him with your concept of Him.  

Consider this - do you agree with everything you were taught since you were born about Him?  Do you agree with everything you were ever taught about nutrition?  Are you convinced that everything you were taught about nutrition accurately reflects His intent?

Just thinking in terms of math, I am more impressed with the numbers involved with omniscience, omnipotence and infinity than I am with ANYTHING I have been taught about Him.  When I consider how puny our level of knowledge is compared to everything there is to know (and that we most certainly NEED to know) I think to myself, "Self?  What are you thinking?  Do you really think you got a clue what He has in mind?  Are you really ready to splain how everything works, has worked and will work?"

Meanwhile, what I can be more sure of is what is falsifiable and falsified.  I still have not falsified theory of gravity to my satisfaction.  Will continue work on that.  Hoping for a bit of a lift from electric universe theory.  Got a ways to go on that one.  

But I do know this theory about nutrition that seems easy enough to falsify.  If something is essential, it is needed to survive.  Held my breath a few times.  I am convinced air is essential.  Have gone more than a day without water.  Feeling less of a need to test that idea again.  Have done the same on a variety of foods. 

Think of it is I know this guy who not only went deficient, he depleted a socalled nutrient for 11 years.  The guy is getting like a thousand times less than all the kings doctors and all the kings experts tell us we need to survive.  And the guy's health seems to be improving through that 11 years.  And through that guys blog, I know a few other folk doing the same thing.  And improving.  And I am 37 months in on depleting it and improving.  

So what are the odds it is a nutrient?  What are the odds that some expert somewhere sometime along the way lied to us?  Or maybe they perceive the Deity a bit (or a lot) differently than I perceive Him.  Or maybe they perceive a different deity than I do?

Quote from Navid on January 25, 2026, 7:45 am

Well, I think you make a good point about not being able to fully comprehend God’s will. And if I’m hearing you correctly, your position is that how could vitamin A be a an essential nutrient if several people have excluded from their diet, and not only are they surviving, their health is actually improving.

Fair points. As far as the conception of God is concerned, my personal beliefs and understanding are based on personal experience and reading of the scripture. I don’t depend on other people to interpret the scripture for me. And I think that we can learn about Him and His qualities through reading the scripture. But that requires some level of faith; it’s not a purely logical exercise.

I do believe that God is Compassionate, that He does not burden any soul beyond its means, and that He wants the best for us.

So if I can’t even eat one tomato without having an autoimmune flare-up, is that because tomatoes are inherently poisonous, or is it because of the frailty and imbalance within my own body?

My opinions are actually very nuanced, not black and white. I myself have been and continue to restrict vitamin A.

Let’s start with some baseline facts that we both agree on. Let me know if you disagree with any of the following.

1. Vitamin A aka carotenoids/retinol are toxic when consumed beyond a certain threshold. This threshold can be reached acutely or chronically.
2. Carotenoids are plant pigments which exist in most fruits and vegetables to some degree or other. Dairy, fish, and eggs also contain retinol, a converted form of carotenoids.
3. When the human consumes carotenoids, some of it is left unconverted and is pushed to the skin/eyes, or somehow cleared from the body. Some of it is also converted to retinol, and stored in the liver or in bodyfat.
4. Some of the retinol in the body is converted to retinoic acid, which is the most potent/toxic form of vitamin A.

Based on the above facts, I’m trying to understand why carotenoids are so ubiquitous in our food supply, and why our bodies process carotenoids and retinol the way they do.

Is it just a nasty poison that happens to be found, to a lesser or greater extent, in most of we eat, and we’d be better of consuming as little of it as possible?

Is it possible that, despite its toxic properties, there is some rhyme and reason to why the body processes/metabolizes/converts carotenoids and retinol the way it does?

I really don’t know, but I think if we can get a deeper understanding of some of these questions, it may help us in our quest to prevent/reverse vA toxicity.

Quote from Ginny on January 25, 2026, 3:03 pm

What has changed since the beginning that has altered the human body?  

Quote from Joe2 on January 26, 2026, 4:38 am

@navid

"Fair points. As far as the conception of God is concerned, my personal beliefs and understanding are based on personal experience and reading of the scripture. I don’t depend on other people to interpret the scripture for me. And I think that we can learn about Him and His qualities through reading the scripture. But that requires some level of faith; it’s not a purely logical exercise.

I do believe that God is Compassionate, that He does not burden any soul beyond its means, and that He wants the best for us.

So if I can’t even eat one tomato without having an autoimmune flare-up, is that because tomatoes are inherently poisonous, or is it because of the frailty and imbalance within my own body?

My opinions are actually very nuanced, not black and white. I myself have been and continue to restrict vitamin A."

When reading scripture, it might help to know something about the authors, the interpreters and even more so their patrons.  This work is more than an exercise.  As to faith pitted against pure logic, that sounds ironic, as if the two can and or are mutually exclusive.  Ever noticed how the word good is almost identical to His commonly used name in English?  By definition He is good.  Good as in ALL good.  As in ALL of the good that there is.   Guessing at such a powerful Entity's intent or motivations is embarrassing.  It trivializes that Entity.  And our ability to improve our perception of that reality.   

It comes off as playing word games - sophism.  Small wonder false dichotomies abound.  Again, what makes inherent poison vs human frailty mutually exclusive concepts?  More to the point, where does such a search get us? 

What does it matter if I agree or disagree with what number you come up with for the maximum number of angels who can fit on the head of a pin?  What would you think of a person who convenes a panel of experts to determine such a number?  What would you think if the wealthiest most powerful person on the planet spent vast wealth on that? 

If sincere about learning why retinoids are so prevalent, take a look at Grant's books.  History he wrote about might give insights.  It may be just a nasty poison AND something that we used to be better equipped to handle. 

In another life, I was in a class at a blood center.  Continuing education about blood types and antibodies.  Younger kids were slumming in class had zero clue nor care as to how important the class was to our work.  Teacher outlined how our lab tests were able to trace donors to recipients right down to closest family member.  Important for sickle cell kids.  It hits black males.  Genetic so young boys usually suffer hard.  Red cells distort into sickles and shred arteries.  Arteries have nerves.  Painful and dangerous process.  Sickled red cells suck at carrying oxygen, shred arteries painfully and clog up organs being removed.  Current treatment entails complete replacement transfusions.  This class was at a time we were just grokking HLA and TRALI. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfusion-related_acute_lung_injury?ysclid=mkv27hpivn544000238

Transfusion-related acute lung injury - Wikipedia

We knew each transfusion caused progressively more problems for the recipient as his body fought perceived foreign invaders.  That is why we need the closest possible donor.  HLA helped explain how this was the case.  This class helped us figure out TRALI and changed the blood donation process to exclude HLA in blood.  Medical Director at the time figured 50,000 people a year were injured and sometimes killed in surgery by TRALI. 

In this class, the teacher was blowing my mind and I was rapt.  I read all I could of Jared Diamond years earlier.  From his theories and experience I extrapolated that sickle cell anemia enabled black Africans a huge advantage over their white European invaders.  Malaria murdered far more of the invaders than any weapon the native Africans could bring to bear.  Meanwhile, the malaria parasite does not respond well to sickled red cells.  Sure the Africans suffered the periodic pain of sickle cell anemia.  But they suffered far less from malaria than the white invaders did.  With epigenetics, that difference grew greater and stronger over centuries.  It probably took centuries to develop. 

Unfortunately, the slumming students (new employees trolling for unemployment) had no clue what the teacher was covering nor its import nor what I was talking about.  Instead they yammered loudly trying to take over class protesting about how racist I was.  Claimed their next stop was HR.  Outright threats to me and the teacher who tolerated such racism.  (Now they were trolling for lawsuits as well as unemployment.)  So teacher took the next day off.

Next day the Lab's Director taught the class.  She laid out how we need to ask the race and any other background information on family origin we can for just such possibilities as a young black boy suffering his first sickle cell episode without a close family relative with matching blood types.  It is not a racist concept.  So I laid out my theory on Malaria being held at bay by sickle cell.  Amazed, she turned and said, "You read Jared Diamond."  I told no one before that about Jared Diamond.  I was the first person she had heard grok the idea.  She was the first I met too.  Real surprise was that we both came to it the same route.

So you go right ahead and figure what He had in mind when He made Malaria and Sickle Cell Anemia and colonizing invaders and colonized people.  Let me know how many angels you find on that pin too.  Might want to look into why He let US government eliminate every bison on the plains to drive Geronimo and his undefeated warriors into reservations too.  

Another genius once told me about an old farmer.  His son fell off his horse and broke his leg.  Neighbor found out.  Told the old farmer, "oh too bad, that is bad luck." 

Old farmer said, "Maybe.  We will see."

Couple weeks later, army passed through conscripting military aged males.  Left the farmer's son since his leg was broken.  Neighbor said "Oh that is great.  That is good luck."

Old farmer said, "Maybe.  We will see."

Couple weeks later, army passed through again retreating from previous campaign.  They conscripted the farmer's horse.  Neighbor said, "Oh that is terrible luck.  Now you will not be able to bring in your crop this fall." 

Now guess what the old farmer said.