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Whole Food Vitamin C, Copper, Iron, and Morley Robbins
I'm watching some interviews with Morley Robbins for the first time and I feel like more pieces of the puzzle might be clicking together for me.
If Morley is correct in concluding that (1) Tyrosinase, and not ascorbic acid, is the important component of whole food Vitamin C, which promotes proper copper metabolism; (2) that copper metabolism is essential for iron metabolism; and (3) that poor iron metabolism results in poor liver function; then I see a potential reason as to why a frutarian diet might resolve Vitamin A and other toxicities (see the recent posts by @michele), and why vegetarians who eat a lot of beta carotene might also avoid toxicity. By simultaneously consuming lots of whole food Vitamin C (tyrosinase), a high copper:zinc ratio, and barely any iron, they should be free of problems with excess iron, which would enable their liver to function at a higher level when it comes to processing other toxins and waste elements of the body, including a lot of Vitamin A.
I've been suspecting more and more that I have copper problems that are becoming worse on a muscle meat and fat carnivore diet. After digging into the subject a bit, it sounds as though it is not uncommon for carnivore dieters to run into copper problems that appear to manifest as deficiency. Given that most carnivore diets are known to be very low in Vitamin C, I wonder if it's not a lack of copper in the diet but rather a lack of Tyrosinase and the cofactors needed to maintain copper metabolism, combined with a constant intake of iron, that is the real problem. Too much non-functional iron in the tissues, including the liver, due to non-functional copper.
I'm starting to add low-sugar, high-Vitamin C fruits back into my otherwise carnivore diet and will try to report my findings in this thread. If my thinking is correct, the Vitamin C complex should improve not only my liver and adrenal function (and thereby improve Vitamin A and fatigue problems), but also my worsening gastrointestinal problems (nightly gas and frequent diarrhea) by improving iron absorption and metabolism and reducing potential gut flora problems resulting from unabsorbed iron in the intestines. I will also be increasing my fat intake (primarily grass-finished bison tallow) and lowering my lean protein intake to avoid excessive iron in the gut for the time being.
wavygravy, part of the high fiber smoothie Wilbur came up with is massive amounts of baobab powder (40 grams). Maybe it wasn't just the pectin (fiber) doing the magic, it tastes almost like lemonade, maybe it is the natural vitamin C and other things in it that were doing so much good. Palm oil high in beta carotene is used in Africa a lot but they don't seem to have problems with it. Maybe your insight will be the key to figuring out why.
This is all new to me. Which videos with Robbins were the most informative?
@wavygravygadzooks do hair tissue mineral analysis and blood work for feritin, ceruloplasmin, copper, zinc. So you can at least somewhat see what is your copper status. But you need to do more hair and blood tests.. It's very complex issue.. What Morley is saying is just one scenario. He would tell you that everybody is iron toxic and that copper even in excess is not a problem. Well I was following his "root cause protocol" over a year and it's miracle that I didn't died.. Btw I think he is right about taking synthetic ascorbic acid will deplete your copper and lower ceruloplasmin. Up to 500mg a day of vit C is ok, but taking 5-10 or more grams a day you will end up copper deficient like every single promoter of high dose vit C use.. Don't buy "whole food vit C" it's waste of money. Just eat some kiwi here and there and like I said 250-500mg of vit C is ok..
Here's the video I just watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btQRrHPRKFc
@are
I think you are referring to the stuff I wrote. The thread I started here was partially an attempt to understand why @michele had success. What I'm trying to understand is that, if you do need protein/RBPs to transport retinoids away from the tissues, how did her eye problems resolve on a low protein diet without any other problems arising at the same time? Were they not actually related to Vitamin A?
I figured this was a lot of hopeful thinking on my part, about a lack of Tyrosinase being the key problem for me. I was pretty sure somebody here would tell me the other side to the story. I know a lot of people with Vitamin A problems blame Morley's protocol, so there was likely to be something missing from his assessment. It could be that all my complaints stem from Vitamin A one way or another, I just feel like my current explanation isn't completely satisfactory and I keep wondering how my GI problems on carnivore fit in with it all. Unabsorbed iron in the gut was something new I hadn't considered before, which led me down the copper metabolism path because copper is necessary for iron absorption.
Do you have comments on Morley's suggestions to take silica (diatomaceous earth) and boron to increase ceruloplasmin activity? It seems like most of his protocol is well-aligned with carnivore, especially a nose-to-tail version. Is your main objection to his protocol that he recommends high levels of Vitamin A intake? What other flaws do you see?
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on May 31, 2021, 2:09 amDo you have comments on Morley's suggestions to take silica (diatomaceous earth) and boron to increase ceruloplasmin activity? It seems like most of his protocol is well-aligned with carnivore, especially a nose-to-tail version. Is your main objection to his protocol that he recommends high levels of Vitamin A intake? What other flaws do you see?
Yes I was taking diatomaceous earth as well. Bad idea.. Small and razor sharp particles can easily cut and damage gut walls.. I think oats are high in silica which I started eating again due to high beta glucan content. Robins has plenty of bad ideas like that. What other flaws I see? His approach is simply one sided. Can work for one person and can kill the other person.. He is very short minded in my eyes. He really things that everybody is iron toxic. That copper in excess or copper toxicity is not a problem at all that taking vit D is always a bad thing etc.. How can someone be so naive and think that one specific vitamin, mineral, diet protocol will work for every single person? It's crazy...
Going back to the case study of the man who was on a low protein diet with virtually no symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity, and who then depleted his liver stores rapidly after starting to consume more protein... https://www.gastrojournal.org/article/0016-5085(82)90132-9/pdf
Is it possible that, after his increase in protein intake and RBP production, his liver stores of Vitamin A were just being redistributed elsewhere into fat stores around the body rather than actually being eliminated from the body? He supposedly did not show symptoms of toxicity at any point during the study, which makes me wonder if he put on stores of fat into which the Vitamin A was being pushed by the RBPs. He reportedly put on 26 pounds over ~12 weeks after switching his diet, and I have a hard time believing that is all muscle! It seems to me it could be rapid fat deposition (from consumption of unsaturated fat and/or fructose) in order to store all the Vitamin A that was suddenly being mobilized from the liver.
In the case of a frutarian diet used by @michele, I wonder if something similar happened through an addition of fat stores from fructose intake? I can't remember if she reported weight changes.
This begs the question, is it better to have such fat stores to sequester Vitamin A, or does that just create another problem in itself and slow the elimination of Vitamin A from the body?
I believe I'm seeing a lot more symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity around my body than some people because I'm running on saturated fat from a carnivore diet, which seems like it's preventing the storage of Vitamin A in fat and possibly keeping it in circulation more? If I'm not eliminating Vitamin A from my body any faster on my diet, then I am probably doing unnecessary harm to myself. However, I had such notable improvements in the first few months that it's hard for me to believe this way of eating is not a reasonable method.
@jiri ‘How can someone be so naive and think that one specific vitamin, mineral, diet protocol will work for every single person? It's crazy...’
Precisely. Well said. First lesson in nutritional therapy is biochemical individually (classic book by Roger J Williams, 1956). People with a fixed one protocol for all are dangerous imo.
I think it is typical to have things change over for the worse, LOL. Is it because your body decides to trust that you are really giving it the break it has been waiting for? I dunno.
Yes, I do think sometimes life is easier if your body "knows how" or "can" store VA in fat. First of all, I think a person's "fleshiness" is kind of a born-in trait. Yes we all do fluctuate a little bit. But a person's body usually has a fleshiness point that it likes to be at. That is just part of the wonderful individuality of human beings. You have your Marilyn Monroes and your Audrey Hepburns. Not all so-called "overweight" people come out badly when their over-all health is checked.
When we and our bodies "stir things up" there is hell to pay. One topic that I haven't brought up for a while, that is still close to my heart, is that I think we can fight back with washing. Why wouldn't we try to get rid of fats that rise to the surface? I now use lots of shampoo, soap, toothpaste etc. Shower and change clothes multiple times a day if I get sweaty, never go without socks, wash sheets often etc. My naturopath was always telling me that a healthy body pushes the bad to the surface. I even think some gentle scratching-where-you-itch is normal and useful.
Anything you've ever read about detoxing is probably up for grabs. Skin brushing, sauna, exercize, hydration, vinegar cure, oil pulling, clay, rebounder, fiber, bla bla bla... hey we finally figured out what those invisible toxins everyone has always been telling us to get rid of ARE. Oh, yay...