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Why I don’t think that this is a legit theory anymore
Sorry for my language. I am no native speaker.
Let’s begin.
The theory of Grant is basically this: Autoimmune disease (e.g., eczema) is caused by Vitamin A toxicity. This is how the disease develops according to this theory:
- You eat Vitamin A but first you remain healthy because it gets stored in your liver. As long as your liver has enough space to store Vitamin A you are fine.
- The years go by and at some time your liver has no space to store any more Vitamin A.
- This is when the autoimmune disease (e.g., eczema) develops.
So how to cure the disease according to this theory? Avoid Vitamin A and over time your body gets rid of the Vitamin A. When the Vitamin A is gone (this could take years) your autoimmune disease (e.g. eczema) should be gone as well.
I hope this was a somewhat accurate description of the theory. I know it can be a little bit more complex, but for the sake of time I wanted to generalize it.
This is why I think this theory doesn’t make much sense:
- If this theory were true, we would never see people cure their autoimmune diseases while eating a high Vitamin A diet. However, there are countless of stories of people doing just that. I know tons of people that cured their eczema while juice-fasting (lots of beta-carotene) or on the Paleolithic Ketogenic Diet by Paleomedicina (lots of liver, so lots of Retinol) or on a carnivore diet with lots of butter and egg yolks or on a vegan diet with lots of fruit and vegetables.
- If this theory were true, the foods highest in Vitamin A would trigger people the hardest. But this is not the case either. I myself have sebderm and I confirm that tomatoes, bell peppers and milk a clear trigger foods. Yes, they have some Vitamin A, but this is obviously not the problem with them. Because the following are some foods that I can eat in huge amounts without ever being triggered by them: Carrots, sweet potatoes, pumpkin, spinach. These foods have a lot more beta-carotene than a tomato and I can eat them in huge quantities and never got any reaction to them. I also never had a clear reaction to butter or egg yokes, which are quite high in Retinol. However, when I drink just ONE glass of milk my skin gets destroyed (milk is not supplemented with Vitamin A in Germany). This again shows: It is not the little bit of Retinol in the milk.
- Countless studies show that up to 5 servings of fruits and vegetables a day reduce the risk of pretty much all diseases and reduce all cause mortality. Also countless of studies show that health markers improve when one increases fruit and vegetable consumption. If beta-carotene was this toxic, this wouldn’t be possible. No, I admit I’m into conspiracy theories myself and I’m well aware that we are lied to sometimes, but I’m pretty sure these studies are not all fake. (And btw, these are controlled studies and not some worthless epidemiology studies that don’t factor in unhealthy user bias). On the other hand there are more than enough studies that show how grains and vegetable oils, which are much lower in beta-carotene than fruits and vegetables, are harmful.
I would like to hear your thoughts about these points.
Now I expect that someone here will probably post: “But I have tried every diet and only avoiding all forms of Vitamin A helped/cured me.” Statistically this isn’t surprising at all. If you have thousands of people trying a diet some will always get better. And these people are the ones you hear from. This is called survivor ship bias. You will never hear from the majority of people that have failed. There will always be exceptions to the rule. Maybe to some very small amount of people even beta-carotene is really toxic.
well the answer is simple and no brainer .
Grants is not claiming that this is 100% objective truth . Its as simple as , if avoiding vitamin A solves your auto immune issues , then yes subjectively this theory is true for you . If it doesn't , then Vitamin A toxicity is not the issues you have .
Regardless , I am suffering from Vitamin A toxicity due to supplement overdose , and I have all the symptoms of autoimmune disease , so one cannot objectively deny the idea that Vitamin A in huge numbers is toxic and once it overflows your liver it can cause autoimmune disorders .
Hope it answers the question
ps : similarly just because some people cured themselves of autoimmune on sweet potatoes , doesnt mean its objectively true for all
As Buddha said, "see for yourself ", So try out the diet for a year , if it helps then yes , if not then stop it .
I think that we should be able to process and remove excess vA. I think that huge amounts causes accumulation but a more likely process going on is that liver health gets slowly undermined by modern life (stress is massive in this imo) and THEN we can’t handle excess vA and it starts to accumulate.
I see vA toxicity as a cause of poor liver health and as a result of poor liver health. A nasty vicious cycle.
People should be able to eat betacarotene freely as there is a negative feedback loop (controlled by ISX) that prevents over absorption and conversion. However, this loop clearly stops working in some. There are genetic issues and I believe epigenetic issues with this. That is, some people don’t have good control due to mutations in ISX and some people loose good control due to environmental factors (epigenetics) and I suspect vA toxicity/poor liver health is one such factor. This would put the body into a negative cycle of over absorption/conversion of betacarotene and worsening vA toxicity. I’m hoping that this can be reversed and resilience re-established.
These are all factors as to why some people are badly affected by vA foods and others not. Much individual variation.
Fruit and vegetables are much more than just betacarotene. Think of all that fibre. All foods have many components. Some good, some bad. A diet that suits someone may be poison for another. If you have too much vA floating around your body and a liver that isn’t processing well, then a diet too high in vA won’t do you any favours. I think that is now clear. If you can process vA in a healthy fashion then you are probably fine with it, but having vast amounts could well cause a problem down the line, particularly if you are exposed to other liver slowing factors (very common). That’s the way I currently see things.
I just want to point out that sweet potatoes may not contain a lot of VA (for example, if they are purple). And tomatoes and bell peppers contain the carotenoid lycopene, which is not enough in other products. Maybe that's your problem. As for milk, retinol is bound to casein in it and is probably metabolized differently than retinol, for example, from the liver.
As for people on a predator diet with eggs and milk. Even if explained from the point of view of Grant's theory, they can eat these foods but stop eating, for example, carrots, and their symptoms will become easier. In addition, food contains a lot of toxins, there is oxalate toxicity, glyphosate, etc. These things can also cause problems, including autoimmune diseases.
As for research on the benefits of fruits and vegetables. I haven't read these studies. But, I don't remember the name, there was some famous fructorian, author of books, etc., who died at the age of 50. Steve Jobs was a Fruitarian and died at 55. I don't think this is coincidence
No lycopene is not my problem, I can eat as much papaya and watermelon as I want and never get a reaction like from tomato.
Also this thread isnt supposed to be about me. It is about Grants theory which is very flawed and inconsistent in my opinion.
Personally, I have no doubt that Grant's theory is generally correct. Yes, there are probably white spots and flaws in it. But for me, now, this theory explains the observed phenomena best. Your examples, in my opinion, are far-fetched and far from being a refutation.
I could not eat white rice at the beginning of the diet and I had to get carbohydrates mainly from sugar, now I can eat it. Personally, I think that food intolerances are a consequence, the toxicity of VA probably causes it in different ways (this is according to the question of why you or someone else can't eat exactly tomatoes). However, there are many other factors besides VA and, as one user said, "we should try to take into account all factors and choose products very carefully."
When I excluded all vitamin A, after 2 weeks I began to have a specific peeling of the skin on my chest. I had the same thing when I took a megadose of retinol (this is a symptom of hypervitaiminosis A). How can you explain this without resorting to Grant theory, detoxification, etc.?
On the question of paleo , fructorian and other "immunosuppressive" diets. Read the review of a person who took cortisol: "I have used corticosteroids for my eczema in the past, and was suprised they caused the effects you describe. I felt energetic, alive, euphoric almost for months while I was using the steroids on my skin. Unfortunately these positive effects turned into over-stimulation, depression and anxiety after about a half year of using it. When I stopped the steroids cold turkey my eczema flared back up like never before. "
To me, I've had my acute symptoms resolve, but my long-term symptoms are a bit more stubborn. (for instance, rosacea is better but not gone) But life is worth living again because I'm not up barfing or having constant headaches.
Unlike many here, I don't have a very narrow diet. So you can't say, hey, she just got rid of gluten or dairy or carbs or whatever.
I just scaled way way back on the amount of VA I was taking in.
My diet was absurdly high in VA for about 15 years. Before that is was just high. LOL. It took a long time for me to get as goofed up as I am.
One of my pet theories is that we are meant to live with vitamin A, and that by the end of our lives we get full up, and that many old-age symptoms are actually VA symptoms.
I think supplements (and other things) get us to an "old age" amount of VA, that isn't supposed to happen to the young.
But none of these auto-immune diseases are new to man. Lupus, diabetes, asthma, rheumatism etc all were known in ancient times. What is new is that they are increasing, and they are affecting younger people.
I can imagine that VA tolerance is like a bucket. You can go on for 60 years filling the bucket and the status quo will be good.
Then , suddenly at 61 years, boom! All hell breaks loose.
So, perhaps you go on a 2 year low-VA diet, and suddenly your bucket has some room in it again.
You can eat VA without symptoms.
Until a few months down the line, when the bucket fills again.
(This is over-simplified, because I do think that the body is constantly detoxing VA. So little pockets of VA are going to make your life miserable in small ways, no matter what your diet is.)
This isn't like an allergy or intolerance, when, for instance, a lactose person eats cheese and gets sent to the bathroom with the runs. It's more like if someone was slipping you poison each day, and your ability to detox from it finally runs out.
Maybe I am just dumb but I dont get why nobody follows my logic here. So I try it again:
This theory says Vitamin A is the reason for a certain disease.
Then according to this theory it should be IMPOSSIBLE to cure or even improve this certain disease while still eating lots of vitamin A. But this is obviously not the case and this alone disproves the theory in my opinion. Isnt this logical?