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Zinc - is it delivering more Vitamin A to peripheral tissues and harming them?
Is zinc worsening my dry skin and mucous membrane problems rather than helping them?
This is a question that has boggled me since I first adopted a low Vitamin A diet that was naturally high in zinc (meat-based) and I started getting skin symptoms that seem to mirror zinc deficiency.
Zinc deficiency has been associated with xerosis (dry skin and mucus membranes), which seems to be a hallmark of Vitamin A toxicity. Yet zinc is also apparently needed for managing Vitamin A delivery to tissues and is involved in the oxidation of retinol to retinal, which makes me wonder if higher zinc intake could lead to increased delivery of Vitamin A to peripheral tissues even in a state of Vitamin A toxicity (or particularly in a state of toxicity when the body might be trying to save the liver by exporting Vitamin A to more "disposable" tissues like the skin).
I've been experimenting with supplementing zinc on top of already getting a significant amount from eating 2-3 pounds of red meat per day, hoping that getting more might resolve my remaining dry skin issues. It's difficult to say exactly what's going on, but taking 60 mg of supplemental zinc has certainly not cured my dry skin issues, and it very well might be making them worse.
As far as I can tell, Garrett Smith and his followers are not implicating zinc with worsening symptoms. One of Smith's clients even told me she is taking 300 mg (yes, 3-0-0) of supplemental zinc per day and has not experienced worsening dry skin from it, so either zinc is not problematic for those with Vitamin A toxicity, or this person may not actually have Vitamin A toxicity.
I also continue to wonder about the case report of the Vitamin A toxic man who was protein deprived and showed no outward symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity. After increasing his protein intake (which presumably increased his zinc intake), he put on a considerable amount of weight, the amount of Vitamin A in his liver went down dramatically, and yet he did not complain of new symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity. Did the Vitamin A in his liver actually leave his body after he increased his protein intake, or did it get moved into storage in peripheral tissues and somehow not elicit symptoms (most likely if it went into adipose fat)?
Lastly, I continue to wonder about the person on this forum who had eye problems suggestive of Vitamin A toxicity, who tried a diet similar to Grant's and did not get better and may have felt worse, and who then apparently found complete relief from those eye problems on a fruitarian diet (deficient in protein in zinc). Did her eye problems go away due to an absence of protein and zinc needed to produce RBP and deliver Vitamin A to the eyes?
@ggenereux2014 Would love to hear your latest thoughts on this, as I continue to suffer from severe gingivitis and gum recession that I was hoping would respond to higher zinc intake. I've tried supplementing most of the nutrients commonly associated with gum problems that I'm not already getting plenty of from food, and with no luck (B1, B3, B6, B complex, C, D, K, Calcium, Magnesium).
There is someone on Dr Smith’s forum who has had worsening eye problems with zinc and says that taurine helped (he found a paper saying taurine helped with zinc toxicity), but was then tied to taking taurine all the time. He has stopped zinc. He thinks he had zinc overload. I’ve got a feeling he may have posted about this on here.
Thanks @jaj
I've been dabbling with Taurine. At first I took too much (4 or 5 grams over the course of a day) and wound up with some of the gnarliest smelling gas and diarrhea I've ever experienced. I'm starting over with smaller doses and working my way up.
Yes, I do think people can be taking too much zinc, and that in turn could cause more circulating vA in RBP, and maybe even without the RBP, and thus worsen their condition.
Eating 2-3 pounds of red meat per day sounds like a lot to me. But I think the amount people need is relative to a bunch of factors so it's hard for me to claim that it’s too much.
I’m sorry, I don’t have any recommendations on what to change. There’s no question that healing here is a very long and slow process.
My skin got drier the more meat I ate. When I ate only raw beef for 30 days I had the driest skin in my life.
Finding this site I thought the reason for this is the vitamin A in the beef fat, but maybe it is actually the zinc content. I dont know. I just know when I did a blood test at the beginning of my carnivore diet I was LOW in zinc. But this was right at the beginning and I kept eating at least 2 pounds of red meat a day for the next year. Sadly I dont remember how dry my skin was back then.
Maybe cut ot the meat for a while and see if you get better. I know it sounds insane, I was on the carnivore hype train myself. But dont limit yourself to a diet high in meat. If it isnt working for you, it isnt working. From what I have seen in people carnivore diets either help you fast or they wont help you at all. I regret grinding it out for a full year without making any progress.
You can eat a low protein vegan diet for 2 weeks and see what happens. Your nutrient stores should be full anyways after eating so much meat so dont worry about nutrient deficiencies.
Another thing: I remember reading Grants book he talks about little blisters in his mouth when he was vitamin A toxic. I get these too but from meat! They are gone after I stopped eating meat for a couple of days.
Thanks Max, very helpful to know about both your dry skin and the mouth blisters.
My longest running symptom that I think is associated with Vitamin A toxicity is the feeling that the roof of my mouth is burned/blistered. You can't really see anything visibly, but the sensation is terrible, and it's been there 24/7 for at least 3 years now. Maybe that's similar to the mouth sores you're talking about? My gum problems seem like they probably have the same origin as the burning upper palate.
The annoying thing is that I suspect you could be both low in zinc AND be getting dry skin from whatever zinc you do have, if that zinc is getting used to move/convert Vitamin A in different tissues.
Hearing what you've told me, I'm definitely going to stop supplementing zinc, and probably cut back on my zinc intake from meat. Honestly, I crave meat, especially red meat, and I don't know what else I would eat for protein. Maybe I'll try to eat more fish since that's lower in zinc.
At first I thought Garrett Smith was crazy when he suggested you couldn't get enough zinc from meat for VA detox. Then I started wondering if my skin symptoms COULD possibly be from zinc deficiency despite my meat intake, so I started supplementing. Now I'm kicking myself for even considering I wasn't getting enough from meat alone. I'm really thinking now that the association between zinc deficiency and dry skin in the literature is due to Vitamin A delivery. When you're not toxic with Vitamin A, you need zinc to deliver an appropriate amount of Vitamin A to the tissues, but when you're Vitamin A toxic, zinc enables the Vitamin A toxicity to manifest in the tissues.
Well, hopefully I didn't suffer for nothing and I got more Vitamin A out faster with all that zinc!
"Honestly, I crave meat, especially red meat, and I don't know what else I would eat for protein. Maybe I'll try to eat more fish since that's lower in zinc."
turkey and chicken? I would stay away from fish full of toxins from the ocean.. I think it's a bad idea to eat a lot of red meat daily for years. Especially if you are not giving blood. All that excess iron can really harm you.. You don't have to eat red meat all the time on low vit A diet. Just eat some turkey, chicken. It is alos low in vit A..
@wavygravygadzooks I’d say you’ve given the all red meat thing a very good try. From what you’ve said it hasn’t worked for you. I’d try something different.
I heard there's a simple way to know if you need more zink. When you put the supplement into mouth, if you experience the metallic taste it means you don't need more of it. If not, you probably have a deficiency. I confirm that sometimes I feel an unpleasant metallic taste, and other times the same supplement doesn't taste anything.
I would really like my skin to be less oily, still over producing sebum. Might test a much higher dose of daily zinc supp for a week and see the results. Never read about Zn causing drier skin, could be part of my puzzle. All my hair tests over the years showed adequate zinc levels.
Health Risks from Excessive Zinc
Zinc toxicity can occur in both acute and chronic forms. Acute adverse effects of high zinc intake include nausea, vomiting, loss of appetite, abdominal cramps, diarrhea, and headaches [2]. One case report cited severe nausea and vomiting within 30 minutes of ingesting 4 g of zinc gluconate (570 mg elemental zinc) [86]. Intakes of 150–450 mg of zinc per day have been associated with such chronic effects as low copper status, altered iron function, reduced immune function, and reduced levels of high-density lipoproteins [87]. Reductions in a copper-containing enzyme, a marker of copper status, have been reported with even moderately high zinc intakes of approximately 60 mg/day for up to 10 weeks [2]. The doses of zinc used in the AREDS study (80 mg per day of zinc in the form of zinc oxide for 6.3 years, on average) have been associated with a significant increase in hospitalizations for genitourinary causes, raising the possibility that chronically high intakes of zinc adversely affect some aspects of urinary physiology [88].
The FNB has established ULs for zinc (Table 3). Long-term intakes above the UL increase the risk of adverse health effects [2]. The ULs do not apply to individuals receiving zinc for medical treatment, but such individuals should be under the care of a physician who monitors them for adverse health effects.
| Age | Male | Female | Pregnant | Lactating |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| 0–6 months | 4 mg | 4 mg | ||
| 7–12 months | 5 mg | 5 mg | ||
| 1–3 years | 7 mg | 7 mg | ||
| 4–8 years | 12 mg | 12 mg | ||
| 9–13 years | 23 mg | 23 mg | ||
| 14–18 years | 34 mg | 34 mg | 34 mg | 34 mg |
| 19+ years | 40 mg | 40 mg | 40 mg | 40 mg |