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A Best Practices Diet
I’m posting this as a starting point to see if we can get to a recommended best practices diet. It will just be a general diet guideline that others can build on and tweak to fit their own tastes and preferences.
I’ve been reluctant to attempt this before because there are just such a large number of factors here, and I sure don’t think there’s going to be a one-size that fits everyone type of diet. I actually don’t have a strong opinion on just how low of a vA diet is best either. Going to as near zero intake on vA as possible might be more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t know.
Please add your recommendations.
Thanks
Grant, This is a project I can get behind. I only started in October, but I have been participating with Dr. Smith's network and have learned so much in that time. I have had my own pitfalls that I would like to warn others and help to create a document that is shareable to new people. The first and possibly the most challenging is an introduction that could be given to treatment professionals to help them wrap their heads around what a patient is doing.
Before you begin, you should know:
Cautions on Sun, Ultraviolet (UV), Infrared and Blue Light exposures
I have a link to study that says that blue light shined on eye retina cells destroys them if the contain Vitamin A, and this doesn't happen if the cells do not have vitamin A. I've been wondering if we need to cut back on our screens and be careful to use more eye protection until we are detoxed. Do the orange glasses work?
Supplements you should NOT take and what to do instead:
Vitamin D - For me, stopping Vitamin D supplementation meant that I was wanting to get UV exposure to start making my own D. This drove me to UV and Infrared exposure and I really wish I hadn't.
I wonder if there would be a better way to dovetail into the diet and test the waters. I was very low A intake for several months, then UV exposure started messing with my skin, and then starting on psyllium ramped up cholestasis that I didn't even know that I had. I would be willing to write my story on that and maybe there could be several cautionary testimonials throughout this book. Dr. Smith was warning not to ramp up soluble fiber too quickly, and I thought I was heeding that advice, but I really had no idea that the limits were that sensitive, even for me.
Having tried a low vA version of carnivore for 9 months now (just muscle meat and fat, mostly beef, approximately 80% lean on average), my experience is that animal fat and lean meat both lead to bile acid diarrhea, but fat probably leads to more diarrhea than lean meat because it stimulates the release of more bile. My impression is there is a lot of Vitamin A coming out in that diarrhea, but I have no measurement to base that on. I only know that I didn't have such crazy diarrhea until I adopted a low vA diet, even though I was eating plenty of animal fat and meat before, and the low vA diet led to a variety of improvements and new vA toxicity skin symptoms that were not present before adopting a low vA diet (I'm assuming these are a consequence of "stirring up" vA in the tissues as a necessary part of their excretion from the body).
My experiments with fiber (acacia and psyllium husk) and binders (bentonite, charcoal, GI Detox) suggest that these are all slowing gut transit time and when they finally come out, it is a very nasty exit! I don't know if they're pulling more bile into the colon and making the diarrhea worse, or if they're simply backing up the usual flow of bile and when it finally gets to the end it's uglier than normal. Either way, these things seem to have only increased my misery, primarily in the form of GI distress.
Based on the above and what I know about the biology behind carnivore diets, I think that fat is key to getting vA out in the bile and maintaining bile flow, and meat is key to getting all your micronutrients. I see fiber and carb consumption primarily as a way to moderate symptoms, but I do not think fiber is necessary for getting vA out of the body efficiently, and it may in fact slow it down based on my experience.
In summary, Grant's diet seems to strike a fair balance between getting the critical nutrients from meat, getting energy primarily from carbs to minimize symptoms, and keeping just enough fat in the diet to maintain bile flow. I think a muscle meat and fat carnivore diet might get vA out the fastest and supply the most nutrients, but it's also likely to be the harshest and least sustainable in terms of symptoms. Meat and white rice (which is what I thrived on for years before attempting to eat "healthier" with a bunch of vegetables) maybe be optimal as long as you don't run into a thiamine deficiency from too much rice.
That's really a tough one. Your diet, Grant, is not only low A, but also low chemicals and mostly organic if I recall correctly. With your elimination diet, you have removed vitamin A/carotenoids, phenols and salicylates, oxalates, histamine, dairy, wheat, etc. What prevented me going so strict was social gatherings and family meals. I think the better diet promoted here should be as inclusive as possible of all food groups. That's how you can gain more adherence to the diet. Since it has been shown in studies that people could excrete vitamin A and resolve hypervitaminosis by using a normal diet with a focus on proteins, I think it should be fair to only limit the worst of vitamin A foods while stressing certain things like quality proteins, some fiber and some fat.
Being on and off the diet for a while, my symptoms didn't seem to completely fit the vitamin A puzzle. I'm finding out that I'm most probably very sensitive to salicylates. I do have trouble with high vitamin A intake, most evidently night sweats, but many of my symptoms are driven by other food chemicals: preservatives and salicylates.
I haven't noticed a big difference between being very restrictive to just rice & beef to incorporating various low VA plant foods like onion and mushrooms. Removing carbs completely brings a pretty big change in the way I feel but I have very little inflammation now as it is that I don't feel the need to eat only beef. To contrast I haven't heard much of the detox-setback condition from people in the carnivore community as much as I have here, maybe metabolising carbs aggravate things, I don't know.
The general rule I follow now is to eat as little VA as possible without comprising my sanity by being too restrictive. I aim to be under 10% of the RDA for VA and find it very easy to achieve that, which for reference is about the VA content of a whole egg. That's probably what I'd recommend to somebody just starting out the diet as well as to eat enough quality protein.
I’d like to add that the differences for women could be critical to address. And, perhaps, certain other health problems that must have workarounds.
perhaps the format of such a book would be a collection of stories of experiences, categorized. Maybe this collection of stories could be used to find a couple of patterns, and then some brand new people (who haven’t begun yet) could be set on a path to see if the predictions are borne out. It could be more of a collection of case studies.
Quote from Kurtis on April 26, 2021, 8:47 pmI haven't noticed a big difference between being very restrictive to just rice & beef to incorporating various low VA plant foods like onion and mushrooms. Removing carbs completely brings a pretty big change in the way I feel but I have very little inflammation now as it is that I don't feel the need to eat only beef. To contrast I haven't heard much of the detox-setback condition from people in the carnivore community as much as I have here, maybe metabolising carbs aggravate things, I don't know.
The general rule I follow now is to eat as little VA as possible without comprising my sanity by being too restrictive. I aim to be under 10% of the RDA for VA and find it very easy to achieve that, which for reference is about the VA content of a whole egg. That's probably what I'd recommend to somebody just starting out the diet as well as to eat enough quality protein.
I think the problem with increasing variety is mainly to do with increasing plant compounds that are not found in animal foods. That's why a carnivore can be so powerful for many. It eliminates all those plant chemicals that can be harmful to a weakened body. Refined grains and many vegetables are low in chemicals, but fruits, nuts, seeds and whole grains do contain many different types of chemicals. People have varying level of sensitivity to those compounds and finding the plant foods you tolerate best is important.
Quote from ggenereux on April 26, 2021, 3:35 pmI’m posting this as a starting point to see if we can get to a recommended best practices diet. It will just be a general diet guideline that others can build on and tweak to fit their own tastes and preferences.
I’ve been reluctant to attempt this before because there are just such a large number of factors here, and I sure don’t think there’s going to be a one-size that fits everyone type of diet. I actually don’t have a strong opinion on just how low of a vA diet is best either. Going to as near zero intake on vA as possible might be more trouble than it’s worth. I don’t know.
Please add your recommendations.
Thanks
@ggenereux2014
I. usually feel good on a near 0 Vitamin A diet , many. people here have pointed out that. going abs zero on vitamin A is troublesome . However you have been on a 0 vitamin A diet for 5 years , whats makin you change. your opinion now ? Do you think you are starting to have health issues ? Do you still believe Vitamin A is toxic. ?
Regards
Quote from Rachel-2 in Colorado on April 26, 2021, 3:52 pmGrant, This is a project I can get behind. I only started in October, but I have been participating with Dr. Smith's network and have learned so much in that time. I have had my own pitfalls that I would like to warn others and help to create a document that is shareable to new people. The first and possibly the most challenging is an introduction that could be given to treatment professionals to help them wrap their heads around what a patient is doing.
Before you begin, you should know:
Cautions on Sun, Ultraviolet (UV), Infrared and Blue Light exposures
I have a link to study that says that blue light shined on eye retina cells destroys them if the contain Vitamin A, and this doesn't happen if the cells do not have vitamin A. I've been wondering if we need to cut back on our screens and be careful to use more eye protection until we are detoxed. Do the orange glasses work?
Supplements you should NOT take and what to do instead:
Vitamin D - For me, stopping Vitamin D supplementation meant that I was wanting to get UV exposure to start making my own D. This drove me to UV and Infrared exposure and I really wish I hadn't.
I wonder if there would be a better way to dovetail into the diet and test the waters. I was very low A intake for several months, then UV exposure started messing with my skin, and then starting on psyllium ramped up cholestasis that I didn't even know that I had. I would be willing to write my story on that and maybe there could be several cautionary testimonials throughout this book. Dr. Smith was warning not to ramp up soluble fiber too quickly, and I thought I was heeding that advice, but I really had no idea that the limits were that sensitive, even for me.
This is really interesting. For the first time In about 10 years I started sunbathing. The sun is still very mild. The air is cold but I could still really feel the sun on my skin. I actually had a very pleasant feeling in my skin but my detox symptoms have gone crazy since doing this. I wasn't sure if it was just coincidence or not. My skin all over has become very dry. I might just stick with vitamin D. Even vitamin d aggravates symptoms in high doses. What dose do you take? If I increase vitamin D too much my tinnitus gets worse, but interestingly enough since sunbathing my tinnitus has also got worse. Of course this could all just be a massive coincidence. and something else could be too blame.
Hi @r-2
Agreed, going to abs zero is not needed, and just too much trouble.
No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal, and was hoping we might be coming to an understanding of what’s better. I continue to be concerned about the slow progress and the setbacks people are reporting. Then there’s the concern about arsenic in rice, etc. And why are people on the carnivore diet not experiencing this same level of setbacks?
I’m actually at close to 6.5 years now, and I’m still sticking to a near zero intake (as possible).
RE: Do you think you are starting to have health issues ? No, not at all. I’m actually still seeing small improvements in skin condition. Overall, my sense of health and well-being is very good, and maybe still improving a bit too.
RE: Do you still believe Vitamin A is toxic? Yes, absolutely. More importantly, I believe that it has no “vitamin” properties at all. I’m still very committed to proving that point, but it will probably have to wait until we get through the COVID crisis.