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A Best Practices Diet
@ggenereux2014 Re: carnivore dieters not experiencing setbacks...my current opinion is that we absorb and assimilate more micronutrients on a carnivore diet, which enables a continuous detox process, and that the additional fat being absorbed (in the absence of fiber binding it) results in a larger pool of cholesterol with which to produce bile acids and eliminate Vitamin A.
There are folks on Garrett Smith's website talking about getting yellow poop. I haven't gotten much clarification on what they mean by yellow poop (do they mean pale, as with fat malabsorption?), but given that soluble fiber and charcoal are being pushed on that website and there are recommendations against much fat, I suspect these people may be running into bile acid insufficiency from a lack of cholesterol (some of them are rejoicing in their cholesterol numbers going down).
Whether or not fiber is doing anything beneficial, it is certainly binding with fat and bile in the intestines, which is probably forcing the body to generate cholesterol endogenously, putting strain on the whole waste removal and detoxification process.
Folks talk about experiencing Vitamin A "dumps" or cycles...my experience on carnivore has been a neverending "dump" that cycles between extremely annoying and intolerable! Were it not for a consistent improvement in energy and sleep, I probably would have abandoned my carnivore strategy by now thinking I was destroying myself.
To reiterate, I'm not saying a carnivore diet is the ideal approach, due to all the stress from detox, but it might represent the fastest way of getting Vitamin A out. I think there's going to be a fundamental tradeoff between getting Vitamin A out and moderating symptoms in the process. The optimal diet probably maximizes meat intake for protein and micronutrients, and then balances carbs against fat for symptoms management, while minimizing plant toxins (lectins, oxalates, salicylates, etc.) and compounds that sidetrack the detox system (fructose, excessive Vitamin C). Garrett Smith has gone a long way towards identifying these elements, but I think I disagree with his view on fiber and fat.
I have been wondering all along at the differences between those who used Accutane vs. those who have had a high amount of dietary A over lifetime. (Also, those who used pharma/drugs, birth control pills, and antibiotics.) It feels like there might be major patterns of difference between those two categories of people.
As I said on another thread: I think there might be something adverse about thinking of ourselves as handicapped. I want to live. Personally, I think the target diet should be family-pleasing.
I think quality of life needs to be taken into account. Life is short. I remember someone doing the math once here and saying that some of us could have 5 years of detox ahead. Some of us might not outlive our VA load, like my cats who were very elderly. Another fact is that some things might be broken, and not fixable-- although there is always hope! Grant fixed his kidney, but we haven't yet seen the same thing happening, for example, to type 1 pancreas people. We need an enjoyable permanent diet for life.
A basic question that I'd like answered in this: is VA like oxalate? If you start feeling like detox is too fast, does it help to put some VA back in the diet? I've been curious about that. It might be an interesting thing to debate. I don't think I know the answer.
Is it actually OK that we may not out-live our VA load? I don't think that any animal on earth has ever lived VA free, so I'm not sure being VA-free is natural (I get that Grant wants to prove a point about VA, the rest of us don't necessarily). I can point to my ancestor who had a sort-of-low VA diet and achieved longevity out of it. Her diet was pretty darn normal (in pre-"eat the rainbow" times). Do we have to strive for perfection?
Stringent diets can silence food intuitions, and that's not good.
It seems to me that Grant's diet is somewhat magical though--and maybe appropriate for the sickest who arrive here. But should it be thought of as a cleanse, rather than a permanent diet?
It sounds like we need a definition of "best practices". Most people want something practical. Some of us want the toxins out as fast as possible regardless of the suffering and dietary monotony.
Garrett Smith's framework makes plenty of sense to me: identify the problematic elements in the common diet, rank them in order of relative offensiveness, then let people decide what they want to eat based on that. I don't see how you can improve on that approach. It enables the hardcore idealists like me to parse it down to the bare essentials while also allowing anyone else to decide for themselves how strict they want to be.
It seems like people want to be told what to eat by an authority, but also not to be told to eat too strictly...you can't have it both ways! I think you either take responsibility for your own decisions based on the information available, or you accept someone else's dietary plan without complaint.
Or am I missing something and just being overly critical?
Quote from wavygravygadzooks on April 27, 2021, 4:27 pmIt sounds like we need a definition of "best practices". Most people want something practical. Some of us want the toxins out as fast as possible regardless of the suffering and dietary monotony.
Garrett Smith's framework makes plenty of sense to me: identify the problematic elements in the common diet, rank them in order of relative offensiveness, then let people decide what they want to eat based on that. I don't see how you can improve on that approach. It enables the hardcore idealists like me to parse it down to the bare essentials while also allowing anyone else to decide for themselves how strict they want to be.
It seems like people want to be told what to eat by an authority, but also not to be told to eat too strictly...you can't have it both ways! I think you either take responsibility for your own decisions based on the information available, or you accept someone else's dietary plan without complaint.
Or am I missing something and just being overly critical?
There are at least 3, but probably more, approaches that could come out of this.
I am a 46 yo female who had a LOT of Vitamin A intake, lots of antibiotics as a kid, and then birth control pills for 7 years, then a miscarriage, then 2 pregnancies with breastfeeding... This shit starts to add up. Women and men have differences, so you could now make that maybe 6 different approaches.
Some of us have to go the distance. We MUST be able to perform in our lives, take care of other people. Cannot take a year out to be zapped (basically already did that, being sick). Happy to find a new lifestyle that WORKS and live it. If I have to have a shorter life, so be it. But, I want the thing that doesn't wreck my thyroid in the process. Don't even get me started on the practicality of eating as a busy mom who also just plain old needs variety and comfort from food. My chocolate has been taken from me. Dairy. Some of us have amines to worry about. Food allergies that we hope will go away someday but must be paid attention now. Some have long covid. Some are breastfeeding or pregnant. Some have low serotonin. There are differences in mineral deficiencies.
Rules will never suffice. We need knowledge. We need to understand the mechanisms. We need to hear the stories from people who have the similar problems to us.
I'm increasingly concerned that I don't have a doctor looking at my numbers. I do have Dr. Smith, but that's a new relationship and no matter how much I like him or trust him, I still think diversification is not a bad idea. Perhaps this whole thing still belongs in the realm of studies, exploration and having a practitioner who can run labs and "run interference." Not that we really have that. I always assume that I know just enough to be dangerous to myself. They only reason I'm doing this on my own is that no doctor ever did have the answers for me. We only got as far as, "Well, maybe you have non alcoholic fatty liver disease" but no suggestion for me except a homeopathic liver cleanse.
Well said @rachel-2. I totally agree. We need to understand the mechanisms and understand what is going wrong.
I have a history that has pushed me inadvertently towards cholestasis. I go to Dr with horrible anxiety (probably, I now think, caused by toxicity not getting out of liver but re-toxing up to my brain) and I get given an SSRI (Citalopram) that I now find increases cholestasis. Great.
Where we lie on the spectrum of liver damage could determine the sort of diet we can tolerate. For me I feel that low and slow is the solution. For someone else a more extreme approach may be the answer. There is no point creating a massive detox if the body can’t get rid of the toxicity. The de-tox then becomes a re-tox and suffering ensues.
Quote from ggenereux on April 27, 2021, 12:31 pmHi @r-2
Agreed, going to abs zero is not needed, and just too much trouble.
No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal, and was hoping we might be coming to an understanding of what’s better. I continue to be concerned about the slow progress and the setbacks people are reporting. Then there’s the concern about arsenic in rice, etc. And why are people on the carnivore diet not experiencing this same level of setbacks?
I’m actually at close to 6.5 years now, and I’m still sticking to a near zero intake (as possible).
RE: Do you think you are starting to have health issues ? No, not at all. I’m actually still seeing small improvements in skin condition. Overall, my sense of health and well-being is very good, and maybe still improving a bit too.
RE: Do you still believe Vitamin A is toxic? Yes, absolutely. More importantly, I believe that it has no “vitamin” properties at all. I’m still very committed to proving that point, but it will probably have to wait until we get through the COVID crisis.
Almost zero people are following your particular diet, and almost zero people are consuming as little VA as you are, so I would come to the exact opposite conclusion as you are doing now. The people who aren't having any progress are eating a much wider variety of food, with a lot more VA.
Adding onto what @salt said above, a common experience for those with dire autoimmune conditions who switch to a carnivore way of eating is a large remission of symptoms, which lasts up until any plant foods are added back into the diet, no matter how little an amount is added back in, for example Shawn Baker who's a strict muscle meat only carnivore noted he got back pain from consuming a single apple when talking on the Joe Rogan podcast. I have seen less reports of dire reactions from trying to reintroduce low VA foods like rice and honey, moreso vegetables
While a carnivore/strictly low VA way of eating is in no way ideal, for somebody dealing with serious health issues dropping down to basically 0 VA might be necessary to see a remission of symptoms
It always strikes me that if the body can’t tolerate any plant food at all then something not healthy is going on. It may be a way of getting rid of symptoms but what is it doing? What is the mechanism? Things that help can sometimes be kicking the ball down the hall. Much of allopathic medicine is like that. The SSRIs I took made me feel fantastic but I now find they may have further ruined my liver. Not that wanting relief from crippling symptoms is a bad thing and it is completely understandable I fully get that. I just think that the route cause should be found while symptom relieving practices are being used. Maybe carnivore is both symptom relieving and addressing route cause but the complete lack of tolerance for any plant foods makes my alarm bells ring. These are just my thoughts.
Quote from Kurtis on April 28, 2021, 3:36 amAdding onto what @salt said above, a common experience for those with dire autoimmune conditions who switch to a carnivore way of eating is a large remission of symptoms, which lasts up until any plant foods are added back into the diet, no matter how little an amount is added back in, for example Shawn Baker who's a strict muscle meat only carnivore noted he got back pain from consuming a single apple when talking on the Joe Rogan podcast. I have seen less reports of dire reactions from trying to reintroduce low VA foods like rice and honey, moreso vegetables
While a carnivore/strictly low VA way of eating is in no way ideal, for somebody dealing with serious health issues dropping down to basically 0 VA might be necessary to see a remission of symptoms
This is why we need studies where science is served. Anecdotes can throw us way off. That said, the Mikhaila Peterson crowd, with Mikhaila herself is another anectdote. I'm okay with people self-reporting... but what are they self reporting on (which factors) and is it all the major relevent factors? We need pattern matching algorithm. Why? because no matter how much I or anyone believes that we are doing our body a service, we simply won't know til years down the road. Now, it is every person's right to choose what to do with their own body and try this experiment. But, I am aware every day that what I am doing could be making things worse IN THE END despite whatever I think is going on right now.
I see that Grant is wanting to protect and help people, and is trying NOT to encourage people to be wontonly reckless. He may also not have anticipated that there would be many reckless people to come along and start harming themselves (hell, I may fit that description, although, like I said before, I never got any answers from allopathic nor integrative nor naturopathic doctors.)
I am seeing that formulating a "diet plan" for Low A is a daunting task, with at least several types of case/person/history/causes with as many possible approaches to doing it (fast/slow, variety/simplicity, testing/no testing, supplements/no supplements, etc.). OK, so maybe in a reductionist mindset, Vitamin A is THE culprit. But, that doesn't mean that getting it out is simple, or that each person doesn't have a few more things going on that can muck up the works.
I enjoy reading all of your thoughts and comments. I think this dialog is useful.
Perhaps, @ggenereux2014 the "book" is a summary of different approaches so that a person new to this can get a feel for the lay of the land (there is a LOT of content both here on ggenereux.blog and at Garrett Smith's network. Both are treasure troves of opinions and newbies can certainly make mistakes, or be unaware of their options. WRITINGS AIMED AT THIS ARE EXCLUSIVE--TRYING TO MAKE THE COMPLEX SIMPLE. (I'm better at this and most people are) Plus, simple means it had better be more safe. Do I want to put my kids or elder parents through what I've been through? No.
Perhaps, also, the movement that we really need is to grow a short list of practitioners who are willing to openly discuss this approach and help individuals walk the path. Ultimately, this is where this entire ship needs to go. So far, this is not looking like a DIY project for most (sick) people (and I'm not sure most people would know that their liver is sick until they eliminate VA and detox begins). WRITINGS AIMED AT THIS ARE INCLUSIVE--ALLOWING COMPLEXITY, QUESTIONS AND THE INVITATION FOR OTHERS TO ADD TO THE DISCUSSION AT THE DEEPER LEVEL. (I'm not qualified for this and most people are not.)