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DiscussionLet's talk about it: Diets and foodsA Best Practices Diet

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A Best Practices Diet

#41 · June 1, 2021, 9:06 am

Quote from ggenereux on June 1, 2021, 8:31 am

It's usually about 36.5 C

Thanks! So there is room for your body temperature to go up if you buy into 37 C being the normal, healthy human temperature, as Brad Marshall has been arguing on his blog Fire in a Bottle.

https://fireinabottle.net/every-fire-in-a-bottle-post-from-the-beginning/

#42 · June 1, 2021, 2:35 pm

I've recently read that endotoxin-stimulated immune cells require a ton of glucose per hour:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6292257/
We estimate the activated immune system uses approximately 116 g of glucose within 480 min. This is likely underestimated because we are unable to account for immune system glucose utilization during the transient hyperglycemic phase as well as the liver's gluconeogenic contribution to the circulating pool.

This could be the reason people drop weight on antibiotics, endotoxemia, infections, sick(inflammation) state, etc

Maybe Grant' immune system does not require much nutrition and more, one hint is his vitamin D raised naturally and this means very little inflammation, thus much less glucose/other nutrients requirements...

If Grant was starving himself with low carb/high fat diet I'd be suspecting he is running on stress hormones in semi hibernetic state :D, but with his diet it's not a case. 🙂

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#43 · June 1, 2021, 7:35 pm

Quote from Arena on June 1, 2021, 8:40 am

Thank you @ggenereux2014, I appreciate it! I think your metabolism is just fine, but I’m curious, if you had to add another 500 calories or so, may I ask what you would eat (without feeling like you are giving advice, just a hypothetical)?

Hi @are,

Some days I do eat more calories, I'm not super consistent with my calorie intake.

But, on those days that I just eat more, I just go with bigger portions with the same foods. Some days I'll swap out the rice for a white bread.

Ourania and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#44 · June 5, 2021, 7:41 pm

Quote from Sarabeth on June 5, 2021, 7:41 pm
This is all so interesting. Two thoughts:

I wonder if carnivore dieters (who forgo liver/etc.) have as much consistent success if they are female. When I did super-low-carb, my health crashed the worst it's ever been - and while it's true I was eating tons of veggies and liver at the time, I had been doing that before and continued those veggies/liver after; it was specifically the macronutrients (or rather, the absence of carbohydrates) that was detrimental. I wonder whether I could be healthy on a carnivore diet now, but I don't plan to try. Maybe I will detox slower, but I am pretty convinced that my gut cannot easily do without starch.

When we started our low A adventures, I had severe detox symptoms within 24 hours (I had been taking vitamin A supplements), so looking back it is very clear why I had such a Vigorous reaction. My kids didn't have terrible reactions (they weren't taking supps), but they ALL had noted symptoms - funny things happening with their nails, digestive Changes, and fairly quickly, Really Good Things. My husband, however, is a classic Non Responder. He almost NEVER notices a change to any diet we've ever tried. (The two exceptions are: his eosinophilic esophagitis resolved within a week of us starting GAPS; and when he did a 40-day milk cure, he gained 15 pounds which he has never been able to do before or since. He lost the weight immediately upon eating normal food again, and didn't feel especially well, but it was an interesting metabolic change).

With the low A thing, my kids and I were sitting around discussing all of the many fascinating things we were noticing...and my husband wasn't noticing anything. I asked him just now, if he thinks that anything has gotten worse or better in the past two years. He thought for a while and says he doesn't think anything has gotten worse...and that maybe, just maybe, he feels a little bit more okay than he used to.

It's interesting to me how much variability there is in responses. While I was busy getting sick 8 times in the first year of our diet, plus developing cystic acne and "pinkeye" and three-week headaches and flu etc...obvious detox....my spouse, eating the exact same things, was not.

This is all so interesting. Two thoughts:

I wonder if carnivore dieters (who forgo liver/etc.) have as much consistent success if they are female. When I did super-low-carb, my health crashed the worst it's ever been - and while it's true I was eating tons of veggies and liver at the time, I had been doing that before and continued those veggies/liver after; it was specifically the macronutrients (or rather, the absence of carbohydrates) that was detrimental. I wonder whether I could be healthy on a carnivore diet now, but I don't plan to try. Maybe I will detox slower, but I am pretty convinced that my gut cannot easily do without starch.

When we started our low A adventures, I had severe detox symptoms within 24 hours (I had been taking vitamin A supplements), so looking back it is very clear why I had such a Vigorous reaction. My kids didn't have terrible reactions (they weren't taking supps), but they ALL had noted symptoms - funny things happening with their nails, digestive Changes, and fairly quickly, Really Good Things. My husband, however, is a classic Non Responder. He almost NEVER notices a change to any diet we've ever tried. (The two exceptions are: his eosinophilic esophagitis resolved within a week of us starting GAPS; and when he did a 40-day milk cure, he gained 15 pounds which he has never been able to do before or since. He lost the weight immediately upon eating normal food again, and didn't feel especially well, but it was an interesting metabolic change).

With the low A thing, my kids and I were sitting around discussing all of the many fascinating things we were noticing...and my husband wasn't noticing anything. I asked him just now, if he thinks that anything has gotten worse or better in the past two years. He thought for a while and says he doesn't think anything has gotten worse...and that maybe, just maybe, he feels a little bit more okay than he used to.

It's interesting to me how much variability there is in responses. While I was busy getting sick 8 times in the first year of our diet, plus developing cystic acne and "pinkeye" and three-week headaches and flu etc...obvious detox....my spouse, eating the exact same things, was not.

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#45 · June 6, 2021, 1:54 am

I’ve heard several times that women need more carbs generally and do less well on a carnivore diet. I also increasingly think that women may have more problems with the vA detox due to oestrogen liver damage, particularly if they took birth control for an extended period of time. Oestrogen increases cholestasis in the liver. This makes it harder to detox, as bile does not reach the gut as easily and tends to reflux back into the blood. People get more detox symptoms when bile/toxicity go into the blood. It could be that your husband is a better, smoother detoxer. Or maybe he isn’t as toxic....because he’s a better, smoother detoxer. Chicken and egg. Poor detoxer = more toxic. More toxic = poor detoxer (as vA, heavy metals etc damage liver). People get stuck in a vicious negative cycle of dysfunction. I can see it clearly in myself.

#46 · June 6, 2021, 6:42 am

Is this because men are from mars and women are from venus? 😉

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#47 · June 6, 2021, 8:43 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 27, 2021, 12:31 pm

Hi @r-2

Agreed, going to abs zero is not needed, and just too much trouble.

No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal, and was hoping we might be coming to an understanding of what’s better. I continue to be concerned about the slow progress and the setbacks people are reporting. Then there’s the concern about arsenic in rice, etc. And why are people on the carnivore diet not experiencing this same level of setbacks?

I’m actually at close to 6.5 years now, and I’m still sticking to a near zero intake (as possible).

RE: Do you think you are starting to have health issues ? No, not at all. I’m actually still seeing small improvements in skin condition. Overall, my sense of health and well-being is very good, and maybe still improving a bit too.

RE: Do you still believe Vitamin A is toxic? Yes, absolutely. More importantly, I believe that it has no “vitamin” properties at all. I’m still very committed to proving that point, but it will probably have to wait until we get through the COVID crisis.

Seems like the higher protein and zinc intakes might be relevant. I can easily short change my protein while eating normally. (I try not to).
Keto type stuff doesn't work for me at all. When I tried that I felt very peculiar, started losing hair and all I could think about was sweets. A cup of sweetened tea instantly stopped me feeling like crap persuaded me that I probably shouldn't be dodging carbs.

#48 · June 6, 2021, 10:22 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 27, 2021, 12:31 pm

… No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal…

I believe your diet is very close to ideal and you might be underestimating it:

rice + beans: complete protein
meat provides any missing amino acids minerals and vitamins even some C

overall it’s a high protein diet that’s low on poisons… simple and beautiful - enjoyed by latin and caribbean cultures… personally I add grilled onions corn tortillas and a 🍺 a day.

#49 · June 8, 2021, 7:15 pm

Quote from Jenny on June 6, 2021, 1:54 am

I’ve heard several times that women need more carbs generally and do less well on a carnivore diet. I also increasingly think that women may have more problems with the vA detox due to oestrogen liver damage, particularly if they took birth control for an extended period of time. Oestrogen increases cholestasis in the liver. This makes it harder to detox, as bile does not reach the gut as easily and tends to reflux back into the blood. People get more detox symptoms when bile/toxicity go into the blood. It could be that your husband is a better, smoother detoxer. Or maybe he isn’t as toxic....because he’s a better, smoother detoxer. Chicken and egg. Poor detoxer = more toxic. More toxic = poor detoxer (as vA, heavy metals etc damage liver). People get stuck in a vicious negative cycle of dysfunction. I can see it clearly in myself.

I have noticed something in myself, although I don't know what it means: my body tends to want to return to equilibrium VERY quickly. This might be good, this might be bad: after childbirth, five times now, my body seems to nearly violently desire to shrink back down - within a week, every time, I can wear my jeans again, although not until after enduring _severely_ painful cramping day and night. When I started Low A, I felt like I was detoxing through every pore of my body. When things feel Not Right in my body, I feel like I don't have a high tolerance for these sensations and get utterly fatigued, whereas my normal state is good energy and endurance. After nearly two years, I would love to know some of the biochemical details of what's going on inside me! I am so grateful and feel so much better, overall!

#50 · June 12, 2021, 1:37 pm

Quote from David on June 12, 2021, 1:37 pm

Quote from Thor on June 6, 2021, 10:22 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 27, 2021, 12:31 pm

… No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal…

I believe your diet is very close to ideal and you might be underestimating it:

rice + beans: complete protein

meat provides any missing amino acids minerals and vitamins even some C

overall it’s a high protein diet that’s low on poisons… simple and beautiful - enjoyed by latin and caribbean cultures… personally I add grilled onions corn tortillas and a a day.

If there is a safe and general diet for anyone trying a lower vitamin A diet I think a missing part is to consider the transition period when changing from whatever diet that was done previously. I think this should be considered since I believe the human body doesn't like any change that is too quick or big, since it generally causes a lot of stress. Many also come here from previously being on different types of really high vitamin A diets and this idea is probably mostly applicable for them.

My first idea which might be hard to implement: an instant reduction in supplements with vitamin A and the highest vitamin A foods like liver, kidneys and sweet potatoes.

Then after 1 week week start to reduce dairy, lowering high vitamin A foods and substituting it with some generally safe foods like rice and meat, since few people are allergic or sensitive to these foods. There are probably some more generally safe foods that could then be in a quite short list of generally safe substitution foods. This might be a bit complicated to implement, especially for someone just beginning with a low vitamim A diet.

Another idea would to keep a simple generally safe, low vitamin A diet like Grant's diet but at the start of the diet you need to calculate your previous general intake of vitamin A (a bit tricky on how to more accurately calculate carotenoid intake instead of the now dubious Retinol Activity Equivilant (RAE) conversion factors like 1:12 for retinol:beta-carotene). That vitamin A intake should then reduced by some amount say 90%. That 90% of original vitamin A amlunt could then be added to the diet in say carrots, but perhaps calculated as 1 g beta-carotene = 1 g retinol. That would add some fiber and make it possible to slowly reduce vitamin A intake with only one added food variable, keeping the diet quite simple. Since the low vitamin A diet is not calorie restricting and carrots contain only a few calories it would be easy to reduce the amount of vitamin A by any percentage in an easy controllable manner, perhaps 10-15% per week. Compare it to strength training were you can only increase the maximum weight/load by a certain percentage from where you currently are before really risking getting injured.

By slowly reducing the vitamin A content from whatever the previous diet was I think there is more room for mistakes for someone starting out. The whole process will start at a much slower rate.

I don't know what a generally safe and prudent decrease rate of vitamin A can be. Perhaps it could be some form of exponential decline like -15% every week from where you were the previous week. That would also mean a quicker vitamin A reduction at the start but with the reduction rate of vitamin A slowing down over time. I think the detox seems to be the fastest at the start and by slowing it down at the start, perhaps there is more resources left in the body to run the vitamin A detox for a longer period of time without problems.

This doesn't solve the long time problems with vitamin A but I think it would give the body some more time to adapt to a low/lower vitamin A diet.

PS. I believe that some amount of vitamin A should be considered fine for a best practice diet since otherwise a best practice diet will, from the outside, look akin to some form of cult which are shaming people who can't keep a super strict diet, which is really difficult. Especially since I don't think there is really any proven long term benefit of doing so more than some sporadic anecdotal evidence. And if for no other reason, I think a super strict diet would appeal to less people.

Quote from Thor on June 6, 2021, 10:22 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 27, 2021, 12:31 pm

… No, I’m not changing my opinion at all. I just don’t think my personal diet is ideal…

I believe your diet is very close to ideal and you might be underestimating it:

rice + beans: complete protein

meat provides any missing amino acids minerals and vitamins even some C

overall it’s a high protein diet that’s low on poisons… simple and beautiful - enjoyed by latin and caribbean cultures… personally I add grilled onions corn tortillas and a a day.

If there is a safe and general diet for anyone trying a lower vitamin A diet I think a missing part is to consider the transition period when changing from whatever diet that was done previously. I think this should be considered since I believe the human body doesn't like any change that is too quick or big, since it generally causes a lot of stress. Many also come here from previously being on different types of really high vitamin A diets and this idea is probably mostly applicable for them.

My first idea which might be hard to implement: an instant reduction in supplements with vitamin A and the highest vitamin A foods like liver, kidneys and sweet potatoes.

Then after 1 week week start to reduce dairy, lowering high vitamin A foods and substituting it with some generally safe foods like rice and meat, since few people are allergic or sensitive to these foods. There are probably some more generally safe foods that could then be in a quite short list of generally safe substitution foods. This might be a bit complicated to implement, especially for someone just beginning with a low vitamim A diet.

Another idea would to keep a simple generally safe, low vitamin A diet like Grant's diet but at the start of the diet you need to calculate your previous general intake of vitamin A (a bit tricky on how to more accurately calculate carotenoid intake instead of the now dubious Retinol Activity Equivilant (RAE) conversion factors like 1:12 for retinol:beta-carotene). That vitamin A intake should then reduced by some amount say 90%. That 90% of original vitamin A amlunt could then be added to the diet in say carrots, but perhaps calculated as 1 g beta-carotene = 1 g retinol. That would add some fiber and make it possible to slowly reduce vitamin A intake with only one added food variable, keeping the diet quite simple. Since the low vitamin A diet is not calorie restricting and carrots contain only a few calories it would be easy to reduce the amount of vitamin A by any percentage in an easy controllable manner, perhaps 10-15% per week. Compare it to strength training were you can only increase the maximum weight/load by a certain percentage from where you currently are before really risking getting injured.

By slowly reducing the vitamin A content from whatever the previous diet was I think there is more room for mistakes for someone starting out. The whole process will start at a much slower rate.

I don't know what a generally safe and prudent decrease rate of vitamin A can be. Perhaps it could be some form of exponential decline like -15% every week from where you were the previous week. That would also mean a quicker vitamin A reduction at the start but with the reduction rate of vitamin A slowing down over time. I think the detox seems to be the fastest at the start and by slowing it down at the start, perhaps there is more resources left in the body to run the vitamin A detox for a longer period of time without problems.

This doesn't solve the long time problems with vitamin A but I think it would give the body some more time to adapt to a low/lower vitamin A diet.

PS. I believe that some amount of vitamin A should be considered fine for a best practice diet since otherwise a best practice diet will, from the outside, look akin to some form of cult which are shaming people who can't keep a super strict diet, which is really difficult. Especially since I don't think there is really any proven long term benefit of doing so more than some sporadic anecdotal evidence. And if for no other reason, I think a super strict diet would appeal to less people.

hillcountry, Jenny and Viktor2 have reacted to this post.

A Best Practices Diet

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