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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

#231 · April 19, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from Alex on April 19, 2024, 9:01 am

Quote from tim on April 15, 2024, 12:47 am

@alexm

You didn't really address my points.

Nobody well known in the alternative health space has many answers. This is readily apparent. Many are giving bad advice and causing harm which is far worse than not being helpful.

One of the most basic determinants of good health is to be able to eat and drink anything without suffering allergies or sensitivities. From what you have written here it doesn't sound like you are at an high level of health, is that fair? So it's not really a strong argument when you make claims about so and so's information improving your health.

I've put in a lot of time over the years researching many different areas not just health. If I were to explain my broad perspective on the subject of health it would take me days to write up and I might sound insane to many or traumatize many. So I'm not going to do that.

@tim-2 I addressed your point about her being a computer scientist making her lack credibility.

Regarding my own health I've had to deal with far worse health issues than you will likely have ever have experienced (from reading your logs seems like you suffered some slight health issues from Vit A toxicity but nothing severe). So I don't think it is fair for yourself to make comments like that.

For 7 years I used to have pretty bad CFS, POIS, MCAS, bad dysautonomia, very bad gut issues and chronic infections. I used to have severe brain fog, speech issues, very bad autistic symptoms - I had aspergers my whole life but when these health problems started I developed a more severe kind of autism. If I had showers or exercised I would have some kind of neuroinflammation in my brain which lasted 2-3 days where I would have this severe brain fog, autistic symptoms and speech difficulties. 1 drink of alcohol would also cause similar symptoms. I had extremely high Anti nuclear antibodies titres (indicative of necrosis and autoimmunity), high phospholipid antibodies indicating antiphospholipid syndrome, ENA antibodies, folate deficiency and had some alternative tests showing I had salmonella, aspergillus , bad arsenic toxicity. I developed these health issues not from poor decisions from myself but rather most likely inhered from my mother and epigenetic causes. For example my mum and uncle both have Aspergers and my mum’s mum had ALS. Heavy metals and toxins are passed down during birth to a mother’s offspring, you also inherit all your mitochondrial genes from only your mother and not your father. And you inherit their gut microbiome too. So I know for a fact bad things were passed down to me, when I was very young I had a massive head (a sign of autism), and also said there was “difficulties with speech” written on my medical record when I was a few years old. I’m pretty sure there is bad copper and mercury toxicity that runs in my family.

And now I don't have any of the above now, completely cured of Autism/Aspergers, brain fog, speech issues, CFS, POIS, dysautonomia I am able to live a fully functional life where I can do what I want and I'm not capacitated like I used to be from the symptoms and health issues I used to suffer from. So I would say that is all a testament to my intuition, hard work and perseverance. Most people believe Autism isn't a curable condition so I proved them wrong. I would actually say I now function better than a lot of neurotypical people in my city (London).

However I did develop other health issues along my journey: 3 years ago I had been dealing with a stomach ulcer on and off for 6 months. Then 6 months later while the stomach ulcer wasn't really an issue for me anymore, it did flare up suddenly quite badly one day, I had also caught this bad infection from my brother that week (he had quite a bad chest infection) maybe it was covid, I'm not sure. After a week it seemed like I had recovered from this virus or whatever it was, but one day I was eating a burger and suddenly I have this sharp pain in my upper right quadrant, accompanied with the fastest heart rate I’ve ever felt (felt like 3-4x faster than I had ever felt), chest pain, severe chills, losing consciousness which felt like an actual heart attack or some kind of sepsis but it actually felt like I was on the verge of death. And in the 7 years before this my health issues had never once felt life threatening despite them being pretty severe. I also had some mini cardiovascular events in the days before which were very similar to this but feel like I was about to lose my life like with this one. So my brother calls the ambulance, I did manage to connect my grounding sheet to me somehow when I was laying on bed and magically this some how saved me and I didn't feel like I was dying anymore and recovered somewhat before the ambulance came. Take it as you want but I did read a study afterwards that grounding reduces red blood cell clumping and can prevent cardiovascular events https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576907/. (I’m aware it is a tiny study from a complementary medicine journal). Anyway I still go to hospital and then get discharged but upon arriving home I eat one bite of food and I have these strong wave like contraction pains in my abdomen (felt like my abdomen was about to rupture) super fast heart rate , and this feeling I was close to death again and all I could do was lie flat on my back on my bed doing breathing exercises and pray I would survive. I also had my blood pressure jumping from extremely low to extremely high and likewise with heart rate.

So I was wondering if my stomach had possibly been ruptured or whether my stomach ulcer had started bleeding because if I lay on my side or front I would cough up blood. Anyway the next 3 days every time I tried eating a bite of food I would get these symptoms which felt very serious and like I was about to die. I managed to get some famotidine from my GP and I could then finally eat some food without it feeling life threatening anymore. But I had to start very slow with white rice and eggs and build up slowly otherwise I would run into the previous symptoms where it would feel very serious again and I was bed bound. Chicken seemed to be the worst thing for me and I instantly would get set back to where it felt life threatening whenever I tried it. And these tortilla chips that had sunflower oil also seemed to be really bad for me now. So I had a month of this where I kept getting set back, where it felt like I was close to death every time I tried to expand the foods I was able to eat. The best the GP could do was refer me to a gastroenterologist in 3 months time and A&E were useless too not providing me with any scans or colonoscopy. So I took matters into my own hands and bought some bpc157 as I saw some people say this caused rapid healing of ulcers and the famotidine (H2 blocker) wasn’t healing anything. Well the bpc157 did seem to help and it seemed to also improve the cardiovascular symptoms. But the main thing that seemed to heal my gut was this grass fed yogurt I tried a few weeks in. Anyway after 30 days where it seemed like I was on the verge to being able to eat whatever I want again. I tried a digestive enzyme supplement and bang suddenly my gallbladder just stopped working and it was from that moment on if I had fats or certain foods like eggs I would very clearly have pain and spasms in gallbladder region, pale stools and I also was back to having very low blood pressure and very high blood pressure fluctations, and also sometimes very bad chills without any temperature, basically it felt like I had some serious infection but my body couldn’t raise temperature due to being in a hypothyroid state with an impaired immune system. My HTMA showed all my key minerals had dropped to rock bottom levels from this health crisis which was not surprising.

So I got ultrasound done and it showed this 0.5cm gallstone I had, had doubled in size in 6 months and was now 1cm but no signs of damage or sludge, but blood tests showed I had low t3 so I was hypothyroid, which isn’t surprising given my cholestatic symptoms at the time. So I tried all the stuff like TUDCA, PC, bean protocol and supplements to reduce stone size but none of it was fixing the issue. It was when I developed this gallbladder disease started that I started having issues with eating most foods, eg: eggs no good, all types of rice no good all now would give me bad gallbladder/liver pain and having gallbladder attacks the whole time. I was reduced to meat, beans, veg and some fruit too possibly but I can’t remember. Then someone told me about Dr Wilsons diet fixing their gallbladder, so I tried my own version of it with lots of cooked carrots, butternut squash, celery, swede, animal protein and a little bit of nut butter I did actually feel like I was healing due to my body finally getting the potassium it needed but I was becoming Vit A toxic and orange. After a month of this diet I had very bad blood sugar issues despite feeling great, but one day my liver had enough of all the beta carotene and dumped bile into stomach and I was feeling very ill again. It was after that I then had issues when I tried to eat carrots. Then I found out about the Vit A toxicity stuff and it all made sense.

So it seemed like the whole cause of this health crisis in these last 3 paragraphs was to do with toxic bile dumps and my gallbladder desperately trying to hold on but in the end it couldn’t and stopped working properly, but I only realised all of this 6 months later when I found out about the Vit A toxicity stuff and toxic bile theory. I had also started this Astaxanthin supplement 3 days before the heart attack event so it could have well have been a toxic bile dump into the blood from a Covid infection, as Mawson mentions that Covid infection can activate the”retinoid cascade” in the liver leading to liver damage and cholestasis and toxic Vitamin A compounds into the blood and various organs. Also a genetic test I had done a few years before all of this, which compares your genetic data with 100,000 other peoples data then determines your risk level of developing certain diseases. Well for Primary Biliary Cirrhosis I was in the 100th percentile meaning I had an extremely high risk for developing this disease more so than all of the other 100,000 people. Do I have this I’m not sure but it could well be possible given the issues I’ve had. Mawson also hypothesises that this disease is caused by Vitamin A toxicity.

And that’s where I started low Vitamin A diet and coffee enemas, there is a whole second half to this story in the 2 most recent years and things completely changed and massively improved since that health crisis in 2022, but I’ve already written too much so not going to write out the second half now. If you have some suggestions that would allow me to eat any food I want without any issues I would like to hear it but I doubt you would know how to fix that. And I can pretty much eat any food type I want such as meat, eggs, dairy, fish, every type of veg, every type of fruit, oats, ice cream, coffee. It is just when I eat non organic grains, fried foods, baked goods, foods with seed oils, rice, non organic foods then I don’t feel great.

Quote from tim on April 15, 2024, 12:47 am

@alexm

You didn't really address my points.

Nobody well known in the alternative health space has many answers. This is readily apparent. Many are giving bad advice and causing harm which is far worse than not being helpful.

One of the most basic determinants of good health is to be able to eat and drink anything without suffering allergies or sensitivities. From what you have written here it doesn't sound like you are at an high level of health, is that fair? So it's not really a strong argument when you make claims about so and so's information improving your health.

I've put in a lot of time over the years researching many different areas not just health. If I were to explain my broad perspective on the subject of health it would take me days to write up and I might sound insane to many or traumatize many. So I'm not going to do that.

@tim-2 I addressed your point about her being a computer scientist making her lack credibility.

Regarding my own health I've had to deal with far worse health issues than you will likely have ever have experienced (from reading your logs seems like you suffered some slight health issues from Vit A toxicity but nothing severe). So I don't think it is fair for yourself to make comments like that.

For 7 years I used to have pretty bad CFS, POIS, MCAS, bad dysautonomia, very bad gut issues and chronic infections. I used to have severe brain fog, speech issues, very bad autistic symptoms - I had aspergers my whole life but when these health problems started I developed a more severe kind of autism. If I had showers or exercised I would have some kind of neuroinflammation in my brain which lasted 2-3 days where I would have this severe brain fog, autistic symptoms and speech difficulties. 1 drink of alcohol would also cause similar symptoms. I had extremely high Anti nuclear antibodies titres (indicative of necrosis and autoimmunity), high phospholipid antibodies indicating antiphospholipid syndrome, ENA antibodies, folate deficiency and had some alternative tests showing I had salmonella, aspergillus , bad arsenic toxicity. I developed these health issues not from poor decisions from myself but rather most likely inhered from my mother and epigenetic causes. For example my mum and uncle both have Aspergers and my mum’s mum had ALS. Heavy metals and toxins are passed down during birth to a mother’s offspring, you also inherit all your mitochondrial genes from only your mother and not your father. And you inherit their gut microbiome too. So I know for a fact bad things were passed down to me, when I was very young I had a massive head (a sign of autism), and also said there was “difficulties with speech” written on my medical record when I was a few years old. I’m pretty sure there is bad copper and mercury toxicity that runs in my family.

And now I don't have any of the above now, completely cured of Autism/Aspergers, brain fog, speech issues, CFS, POIS, dysautonomia I am able to live a fully functional life where I can do what I want and I'm not capacitated like I used to be from the symptoms and health issues I used to suffer from. So I would say that is all a testament to my intuition, hard work and perseverance. Most people believe Autism isn't a curable condition so I proved them wrong. I would actually say I now function better than a lot of neurotypical people in my city (London).

However I did develop other health issues along my journey: 3 years ago I had been dealing with a stomach ulcer on and off for 6 months. Then 6 months later while the stomach ulcer wasn't really an issue for me anymore, it did flare up suddenly quite badly one day, I had also caught this bad infection from my brother that week (he had quite a bad chest infection) maybe it was covid, I'm not sure. After a week it seemed like I had recovered from this virus or whatever it was, but one day I was eating a burger and suddenly I have this sharp pain in my upper right quadrant, accompanied with the fastest heart rate I’ve ever felt (felt like 3-4x faster than I had ever felt), chest pain, severe chills, losing consciousness which felt like an actual heart attack or some kind of sepsis but it actually felt like I was on the verge of death. And in the 7 years before this my health issues had never once felt life threatening despite them being pretty severe. I also had some mini cardiovascular events in the days before which were very similar to this but feel like I was about to lose my life like with this one. So my brother calls the ambulance, I did manage to connect my grounding sheet to me somehow when I was laying on bed and magically this some how saved me and I didn't feel like I was dying anymore and recovered somewhat before the ambulance came. Take it as you want but I did read a study afterwards that grounding reduces red blood cell clumping and can prevent cardiovascular events https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576907/. (I’m aware it is a tiny study from a complementary medicine journal). Anyway I still go to hospital and then get discharged but upon arriving home I eat one bite of food and I have these strong wave like contraction pains in my abdomen (felt like my abdomen was about to rupture) super fast heart rate , and this feeling I was close to death again and all I could do was lie flat on my back on my bed doing breathing exercises and pray I would survive. I also had my blood pressure jumping from extremely low to extremely high and likewise with heart rate.

So I was wondering if my stomach had possibly been ruptured or whether my stomach ulcer had started bleeding because if I lay on my side or front I would cough up blood. Anyway the next 3 days every time I tried eating a bite of food I would get these symptoms which felt very serious and like I was about to die. I managed to get some famotidine from my GP and I could then finally eat some food without it feeling life threatening anymore. But I had to start very slow with white rice and eggs and build up slowly otherwise I would run into the previous symptoms where it would feel very serious again and I was bed bound. Chicken seemed to be the worst thing for me and I instantly would get set back to where it felt life threatening whenever I tried it. And these tortilla chips that had sunflower oil also seemed to be really bad for me now. So I had a month of this where I kept getting set back, where it felt like I was close to death every time I tried to expand the foods I was able to eat. The best the GP could do was refer me to a gastroenterologist in 3 months time and A&E were useless too not providing me with any scans or colonoscopy. So I took matters into my own hands and bought some bpc157 as I saw some people say this caused rapid healing of ulcers and the famotidine (H2 blocker) wasn’t healing anything. Well the bpc157 did seem to help and it seemed to also improve the cardiovascular symptoms. But the main thing that seemed to heal my gut was this grass fed yogurt I tried a few weeks in. Anyway after 30 days where it seemed like I was on the verge to being able to eat whatever I want again. I tried a digestive enzyme supplement and bang suddenly my gallbladder just stopped working and it was from that moment on if I had fats or certain foods like eggs I would very clearly have pain and spasms in gallbladder region, pale stools and I also was back to having very low blood pressure and very high blood pressure fluctations, and also sometimes very bad chills without any temperature, basically it felt like I had some serious infection but my body couldn’t raise temperature due to being in a hypothyroid state with an impaired immune system. My HTMA showed all my key minerals had dropped to rock bottom levels from this health crisis which was not surprising.

So I got ultrasound done and it showed this 0.5cm gallstone I had, had doubled in size in 6 months and was now 1cm but no signs of damage or sludge, but blood tests showed I had low t3 so I was hypothyroid, which isn’t surprising given my cholestatic symptoms at the time. So I tried all the stuff like TUDCA, PC, bean protocol and supplements to reduce stone size but none of it was fixing the issue. It was when I developed this gallbladder disease started that I started having issues with eating most foods, eg: eggs no good, all types of rice no good all now would give me bad gallbladder/liver pain and having gallbladder attacks the whole time. I was reduced to meat, beans, veg and some fruit too possibly but I can’t remember. Then someone told me about Dr Wilsons diet fixing their gallbladder, so I tried my own version of it with lots of cooked carrots, butternut squash, celery, swede, animal protein and a little bit of nut butter I did actually feel like I was healing due to my body finally getting the potassium it needed but I was becoming Vit A toxic and orange. After a month of this diet I had very bad blood sugar issues despite feeling great, but one day my liver had enough of all the beta carotene and dumped bile into stomach and I was feeling very ill again. It was after that I then had issues when I tried to eat carrots. Then I found out about the Vit A toxicity stuff and it all made sense.

So it seemed like the whole cause of this health crisis in these last 3 paragraphs was to do with toxic bile dumps and my gallbladder desperately trying to hold on but in the end it couldn’t and stopped working properly, but I only realised all of this 6 months later when I found out about the Vit A toxicity stuff and toxic bile theory. I had also started this Astaxanthin supplement 3 days before the heart attack event so it could have well have been a toxic bile dump into the blood from a Covid infection, as Mawson mentions that Covid infection can activate the”retinoid cascade” in the liver leading to liver damage and cholestasis and toxic Vitamin A compounds into the blood and various organs. Also a genetic test I had done a few years before all of this, which compares your genetic data with 100,000 other peoples data then determines your risk level of developing certain diseases. Well for Primary Biliary Cirrhosis I was in the 100th percentile meaning I had an extremely high risk for developing this disease more so than all of the other 100,000 people. Do I have this I’m not sure but it could well be possible given the issues I’ve had. Mawson also hypothesises that this disease is caused by Vitamin A toxicity.

And that’s where I started low Vitamin A diet and coffee enemas, there is a whole second half to this story in the 2 most recent years and things completely changed and massively improved since that health crisis in 2022, but I’ve already written too much so not going to write out the second half now. If you have some suggestions that would allow me to eat any food I want without any issues I would like to hear it but I doubt you would know how to fix that. And I can pretty much eat any food type I want such as meat, eggs, dairy, fish, every type of veg, every type of fruit, oats, ice cream, coffee. It is just when I eat non organic grains, fried foods, baked goods, foods with seed oils, rice, non organic foods then I don’t feel great.

#232 · April 19, 2024, 3:51 pm

Coffee enemas are a Godsend for liver and gallbladder problems. Have you tried lecithin, @alexm? I want someone with bad gallbladder health to test it out.

#233 · April 20, 2024, 7:34 am

Quote from Alex on April 20, 2024, 7:34 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 19, 2024, 3:51 pm

Coffee enemas are a Godsend for liver and gallbladder problems. Have you tried lecithin, @alexm? I want someone with bad gallbladder health to test it out.

@janelle525 Yeah that last post of mine in this thread is what happened in 2022 and before that not anything in the last 2 years. I did 1-2 coffee enemas daily for 6 months with Pectasol, glycine, Mega IGG 2000 and low Vit A diet end of 2022 and it fixed a lot of stuff for me bile wise and with my gallbladder but in 2023 some bad things happened to me and I had stopped doing the coffee enemas and now my gallbladder and liver aren't as good again, but still nothing as bad as they when the gallbladder issues first started in early 2022.

And since last year I'm now expelling bloody mucus after the enemas which definitely concerns me, it's not what I initially release after doing the coffee enema, it is right at the end or maybe 10 minutes after, that this blood and mucus comes out. I don't think it is from a haemorrhoids as I would be able to feel and tell if it was that, but I think it is coming from either my gallbladder or upper GI tract is what it feels like to me. I really hope it is not cancer (as my blood tests in last year have shown high b12 which can be a sign of liver cancer) and rather just some injury or infection but I want to fix it somehow. I only see this blood when I do the coffee enemas so it puts me off doing them. Also when my gallbladder issues first started years ago I got a colonic done as I was preparing to do a liver flush well after this colonic I also passed blood in my stools but I felt so much better and clearer headed after passing it. I think it could possibly be some kind of infection or rotting tissues from my gallbladder. Before my gallbadder issues started if I took low dose supplemental lithium it would also cause bloody stools and sometimes with potassium supplements too so I think it is related to some sort of toxin/pathogen stuck in my body

I have used Phosphatidylcholine from thorne for a year which is very high quality and from soy Lecithin, it's good for the adrenals and lowering the stress response but never fixed anything with my gallbladder and liver, sure it can help support those organs at times but doesn't do anything to fix them for me. I can't use any sunflower Lecithin I found that highly estrogenic whenever I used it.

Quote from Janelle525 on April 19, 2024, 3:51 pm

Coffee enemas are a Godsend for liver and gallbladder problems. Have you tried lecithin, @alexm? I want someone with bad gallbladder health to test it out.

@janelle525 Yeah that last post of mine in this thread is what happened in 2022 and before that not anything in the last 2 years. I did 1-2 coffee enemas daily for 6 months with Pectasol, glycine, Mega IGG 2000 and low Vit A diet end of 2022 and it fixed a lot of stuff for me bile wise and with my gallbladder but in 2023 some bad things happened to me and I had stopped doing the coffee enemas and now my gallbladder and liver aren't as good again, but still nothing as bad as they when the gallbladder issues first started in early 2022.

And since last year I'm now expelling bloody mucus after the enemas which definitely concerns me, it's not what I initially release after doing the coffee enema, it is right at the end or maybe 10 minutes after, that this blood and mucus comes out. I don't think it is from a haemorrhoids as I would be able to feel and tell if it was that, but I think it is coming from either my gallbladder or upper GI tract is what it feels like to me. I really hope it is not cancer (as my blood tests in last year have shown high b12 which can be a sign of liver cancer) and rather just some injury or infection but I want to fix it somehow. I only see this blood when I do the coffee enemas so it puts me off doing them. Also when my gallbladder issues first started years ago I got a colonic done as I was preparing to do a liver flush well after this colonic I also passed blood in my stools but I felt so much better and clearer headed after passing it. I think it could possibly be some kind of infection or rotting tissues from my gallbladder. Before my gallbadder issues started if I took low dose supplemental lithium it would also cause bloody stools and sometimes with potassium supplements too so I think it is related to some sort of toxin/pathogen stuck in my body

I have used Phosphatidylcholine from thorne for a year which is very high quality and from soy Lecithin, it's good for the adrenals and lowering the stress response but never fixed anything with my gallbladder and liver, sure it can help support those organs at times but doesn't do anything to fix them for me. I can't use any sunflower Lecithin I found that highly estrogenic whenever I used it.

#234 · April 20, 2024, 8:20 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 20, 2024, 8:20 am

Quote from Alex on April 20, 2024, 7:34 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 19, 2024, 3:51 pm

Coffee enemas are a Godsend for liver and gallbladder problems. Have you tried lecithin, @alexm? I want someone with bad gallbladder health to test it out.

@janelle525 Yeah that last post of mine in this thread is what happened in 2022 and before that not anything in the last 2 years. I did 1-2 coffee enemas daily for 6 months with Pectasol, glycine, Mega IGG 2000 and low Vit A diet end of 2022 and it fixed a lot of stuff for me bile wise and with my gallbladder but in 2023 some bad things happened to me and I had stopped doing the coffee enemas and now my gallbladder and liver aren't as good again, but still nothing as bad as they when the gallbladder issues first started in early 2022.

And since last year I'm now expelling bloody mucus after the enemas which definitely concerns me, it's not what I initially release after doing the coffee enema, it is right at the end or maybe 10 minutes after, that this blood and mucus comes out. I don't think it is from a haemorrhoids as I would be able to feel and tell if it was that, but I think it is coming from either my gallbladder or upper GI tract is what it feels like to me. I really hope it is not cancer (as my blood tests in last year have shown high b12 which can be a sign of liver cancer) and rather just some injury or infection but I want to fix it somehow. I only see this blood when I do the coffee enemas so it puts me off doing them. Also when my gallbladder issues first started years ago I got a colonic done as I was preparing to do a liver flush well after this colonic I also passed blood in my stools but I felt so much better and clearer headed after passing it. I think it could possibly be some kind of infection or rotting tissues from my gallbladder. Before my gallbadder issues started if I took low dose supplemental lithium it would also cause bloody stools and sometimes with potassium supplements too so I think it is related to some sort of toxin/pathogen stuck in my body

I have used Phosphatidylcholine from thorne for a year which is very high quality and from soy Lecithin, it's good for the adrenals and lowering the stress response but never fixed anything with my gallbladder and liver, sure it can help support those organs at times but doesn't do anything to fix them for me. I can't use any sunflower Lecithin I found that highly estrogenic whenever I used it.

Yes be careful with the enemas then. I had one coffee enema I saw a small spot of blood in the mucus after doing them everyday for a couple months. I think care must be taken not to overdo them. I think Dr. Wilson is crazy to suggest multiple times a day is healing. There's a study showing niacin enemas healed colits or crohns can't remember which, but basically massive amount of inflammation went away on niacin enemas. I have done those, you buffer the nicotinic acid with baking soda. It feels pretty nice, but I'm trying not to be dependent on enemas.

That's interesting lecithin didn't do much for the gallbladder and liver, I thought the claim was choline helps bile that if we don't get at least 550 mg our body steals it from our cell membranes? I mean we have a giant thread about it on here and mostly people aren't refuting the claims other than Tim saying excessive egg consumption is not healthy. But Grant is doing pretty amazing just getting his choline from beef or bison.

Quote from Alex on April 20, 2024, 7:34 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 19, 2024, 3:51 pm

Coffee enemas are a Godsend for liver and gallbladder problems. Have you tried lecithin, @alexm? I want someone with bad gallbladder health to test it out.

@janelle525 Yeah that last post of mine in this thread is what happened in 2022 and before that not anything in the last 2 years. I did 1-2 coffee enemas daily for 6 months with Pectasol, glycine, Mega IGG 2000 and low Vit A diet end of 2022 and it fixed a lot of stuff for me bile wise and with my gallbladder but in 2023 some bad things happened to me and I had stopped doing the coffee enemas and now my gallbladder and liver aren't as good again, but still nothing as bad as they when the gallbladder issues first started in early 2022.

And since last year I'm now expelling bloody mucus after the enemas which definitely concerns me, it's not what I initially release after doing the coffee enema, it is right at the end or maybe 10 minutes after, that this blood and mucus comes out. I don't think it is from a haemorrhoids as I would be able to feel and tell if it was that, but I think it is coming from either my gallbladder or upper GI tract is what it feels like to me. I really hope it is not cancer (as my blood tests in last year have shown high b12 which can be a sign of liver cancer) and rather just some injury or infection but I want to fix it somehow. I only see this blood when I do the coffee enemas so it puts me off doing them. Also when my gallbladder issues first started years ago I got a colonic done as I was preparing to do a liver flush well after this colonic I also passed blood in my stools but I felt so much better and clearer headed after passing it. I think it could possibly be some kind of infection or rotting tissues from my gallbladder. Before my gallbadder issues started if I took low dose supplemental lithium it would also cause bloody stools and sometimes with potassium supplements too so I think it is related to some sort of toxin/pathogen stuck in my body

I have used Phosphatidylcholine from thorne for a year which is very high quality and from soy Lecithin, it's good for the adrenals and lowering the stress response but never fixed anything with my gallbladder and liver, sure it can help support those organs at times but doesn't do anything to fix them for me. I can't use any sunflower Lecithin I found that highly estrogenic whenever I used it.

Yes be careful with the enemas then. I had one coffee enema I saw a small spot of blood in the mucus after doing them everyday for a couple months. I think care must be taken not to overdo them. I think Dr. Wilson is crazy to suggest multiple times a day is healing. There's a study showing niacin enemas healed colits or crohns can't remember which, but basically massive amount of inflammation went away on niacin enemas. I have done those, you buffer the nicotinic acid with baking soda. It feels pretty nice, but I'm trying not to be dependent on enemas.

That's interesting lecithin didn't do much for the gallbladder and liver, I thought the claim was choline helps bile that if we don't get at least 550 mg our body steals it from our cell membranes? I mean we have a giant thread about it on here and mostly people aren't refuting the claims other than Tim saying excessive egg consumption is not healthy. But Grant is doing pretty amazing just getting his choline from beef or bison.

#235 · April 21, 2024, 1:06 am

Quote from David on April 21, 2024, 1:06 am

Quote from tim on April 8, 2024, 12:10 am

@david

Thank you.

I'm not sure that that amount of retinol is very large for a cattle beast but any study that gives a herbivore retinol before measuring the meat for it is flawed IMO.

@tim-2
The 2015 Chinese study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0309174015300632) was giving a growing steer (male castrated cow) that weighed around 381 kg at the start of the experiment, retinol supplementation which was something like 125 IU retinol /kg of body weight or 37.5 µg retinol /(kg of body weight. That is a poisoning, what ever way someone looks at it. In an adult human with a weight of 75 kg that would be:
9 375 IU retinol /day or 2812.5 µg retinol /day which is a little over 3x the RDA (2700 IU or 900 µg retinol) for a male human, while totally excluding any retinoids or carotenoids absorbed from the diet.

Let's also remember that cows usually never eat any meaningful amounts of retinoids in their diet, except when they are calves, as far as I know.

Reposting part of my comment with some data from the 2015 Chinese study, taken from this thread:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/why-i-dont-think-this-is-a-legit-theory-anymore/?part=12

"The animals are said to have had a mean weight of 381 kg at the start of the experiment:
"We randomly selected 120 continental crossbred (Simmental × local yellow cattle) steers (mean live weight of 381 ± 26.01 kg) from feedlots and assigned them to four groups."

Assuming no weight gain of the cows (to get a very conservative number) we then find this amount of feed concentrate given per day to every cow:
381 kg * 1%/day = 3.81 kg/day of feed concentrate

In Table 1 called Composition and nutrient contents of concentrates (air-dry basis), they list that 1% of the concentrate is made of a vitamin and mineral premix. The daily feeding of this premix is:
3.81 kg/day * 1% = 0.0381 kg/day of vitamin and mineral premix

Under Table 1 in the 2015 Chinese study, they write that the vitamin and mineral premix contains 1 250 000 IU of vitamin A supplement per kg of vitamin and mineral premix.
"The premix contained the following components per kg of concentrate: Vitamin A 1250 KIU [kilo-IU], vitamin D3 270 KIU, vitamin E 5 KIU, manganese 3060 mg, zinc 14,280 mg, iron 3170 mg, copper 3040 mg, selenium 100 mg, iodine 180 mg, cobalt 40 mg."

This means the steers (castrated male cows) in the study all got this amount of vitamin A per day during the supplementation phase which was 115 days in total [-15 to 0 days (adaption period) and 0-90 days (supplementation period)]
0.0381 kg/day * 1 250 000 IU vitamin A =47 625 IU vitamin A /day"

Quote from tim on April 8, 2024, 12:10 am

@david

Thank you.

I'm not sure that that amount of retinol is very large for a cattle beast but any study that gives a herbivore retinol before measuring the meat for it is flawed IMO.

@tim-2
The 2015 Chinese study (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0309174015300632) was giving a growing steer (male castrated cow) that weighed around 381 kg at the start of the experiment, retinol supplementation which was something like 125 IU retinol /kg of body weight or 37.5 µg retinol /(kg of body weight. That is a poisoning, what ever way someone looks at it. In an adult human with a weight of 75 kg that would be:
9 375 IU retinol /day or 2812.5 µg retinol /day which is a little over 3x the RDA (2700 IU or 900 µg retinol) for a male human, while totally excluding any retinoids or carotenoids absorbed from the diet.

Let's also remember that cows usually never eat any meaningful amounts of retinoids in their diet, except when they are calves, as far as I know.

Reposting part of my comment with some data from the 2015 Chinese study, taken from this thread:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/why-i-dont-think-this-is-a-legit-theory-anymore/?part=12

"The animals are said to have had a mean weight of 381 kg at the start of the experiment:
"We randomly selected 120 continental crossbred (Simmental × local yellow cattle) steers (mean live weight of 381 ± 26.01 kg) from feedlots and assigned them to four groups."

Assuming no weight gain of the cows (to get a very conservative number) we then find this amount of feed concentrate given per day to every cow:
381 kg * 1%/day = 3.81 kg/day of feed concentrate

In Table 1 called Composition and nutrient contents of concentrates (air-dry basis), they list that 1% of the concentrate is made of a vitamin and mineral premix. The daily feeding of this premix is:
3.81 kg/day * 1% = 0.0381 kg/day of vitamin and mineral premix

Under Table 1 in the 2015 Chinese study, they write that the vitamin and mineral premix contains 1 250 000 IU of vitamin A supplement per kg of vitamin and mineral premix.
"The premix contained the following components per kg of concentrate: Vitamin A 1250 KIU [kilo-IU], vitamin D3 270 KIU, vitamin E 5 KIU, manganese 3060 mg, zinc 14,280 mg, iron 3170 mg, copper 3040 mg, selenium 100 mg, iodine 180 mg, cobalt 40 mg."

This means the steers (castrated male cows) in the study all got this amount of vitamin A per day during the supplementation phase which was 115 days in total [-15 to 0 days (adaption period) and 0-90 days (supplementation period)]
0.0381 kg/day * 1 250 000 IU vitamin A =47 625 IU vitamin A /day"

#236 · April 21, 2024, 6:35 pm

@david

There are specific multiplication factors to relate micronutrient amounts to different animals. It's not as simple as going by weight. But you might not be far off.

2800 mcg retinol per day for a few months is significant but I wouldn't expect it to cause retinyl to overflow out of the liver into muscle. I'm on the fence on that one.

One thing that is apparent is that VAD tends to be associated with low meat intakes. There are many possible explanations such as zinc and riboflavin intake for why that is but just saying. High meat intake sure seems protective against VAD. I'm not suggesting the nutrition databases are wrong but I would like to see serum retinol levels from a group of long time meat only no organ meat carnivore dieters.

Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.

#237 · April 22, 2024, 2:34 am

Quote from David on April 22, 2024, 2:34 am
@tim-2

Quote from tim on April 21, 2024, 6:35 pm

@david

There are specific multiplication factors to relate micronutrient amounts to different animals. It's not as simple as going by weight. But you might not be far off.

2800 mcg retinol per day for a few months is significant but I wouldn't expect it to cause retinyl to overflow out of the liver into muscle. I'm on the fence on that one.

One thing that is apparent is that VAD tends to be associated with low meat intakes. There are many possible explanations such as zinc and riboflavin intake for why that is but just saying. High meat intake sure seems protective against VAD. I'm not suggesting the nutrition databases are wrong but I would like to see serum retinol levels from a group of long time meat only no organ meat carnivore dieters.

What is there to expect about retinol overflow into the poisoned animals muscles? Their own data shows that retinol quite quickly goes down in all measured tissue after all supplementation is stopped at day 90. It is a clear case of poisoning, unknowingly or not.

Here is a point I don't think anyone else has brought up in relation to that 2015 Chinese study. There is no guarantee that the label of the vitamin and mineral premix used by the researchers really contain what it should. It is known that some human supplements are wrongly labelled and evidently it happens to animals as well.

For example see the abstract of this German 2004 case report of a pig herd being poisoned by 10x the amount compared to the label and this was additionally compounded with another 10x user error in mixing, to a total of a 100x the quoted pig RDA (what ever that is worth). This 2004 pig case report is called:
"Vitamin A-intoxication in the pig"
https://doi.org/10.1055/s-0038-1623552

"Results: Three to four days after introduction of a certain food, 50% of the piglets suddenly showed lameness. Other symptoms could not be observed. Lameness improved after the food had been changed again, but significant deformations of the limbs remained. The development of the rump was less involved. X-ray- as well as pathological-anatomical examination revealed a premature closure of the epiphyseal growth plates in the limb bones. The result of a food examination showed a vitamin A-content of 195000 IU/kg and a vitamin D-content of 23300 IU/kg, being ten times higher than declared and one hundred times higher than requirements in both cases. No signs of hypervitaminosis D were obvious in the herd. Conclusions: Inspite of the short time of exposition and overdosing of both vitamins, symptoms are corresponding exactly with hypervitaminosis A. Clinical relevance: In cases of lameness in large numbers, possible faults in feed composition, e. g. vitamin A-content have to be considered."

@tim-2

Quote from tim on April 21, 2024, 6:35 pm

@david

There are specific multiplication factors to relate micronutrient amounts to different animals. It's not as simple as going by weight. But you might not be far off.

2800 mcg retinol per day for a few months is significant but I wouldn't expect it to cause retinyl to overflow out of the liver into muscle. I'm on the fence on that one.

One thing that is apparent is that VAD tends to be associated with low meat intakes. There are many possible explanations such as zinc and riboflavin intake for why that is but just saying. High meat intake sure seems protective against VAD. I'm not suggesting the nutrition databases are wrong but I would like to see serum retinol levels from a group of long time meat only no organ meat carnivore dieters.

What is there to expect about retinol overflow into the poisoned animals muscles? Their own data shows that retinol quite quickly goes down in all measured tissue after all supplementation is stopped at day 90. It is a clear case of poisoning, unknowingly or not.

Here is a point I don't think anyone else has brought up in relation to that 2015 Chinese study. There is no guarantee that the label of the vitamin and mineral premix used by the researchers really contain what it should. It is known that some human supplements are wrongly labelled and evidently it happens to animals as well.

For example see the abstract of this German 2004 case report of a pig herd being poisoned by 10x the amount compared to the label and this was additionally compounded with another 10x user error in mixing, to a total of a 100x the quoted pig RDA (what ever that is worth). This 2004 pig case report is called:
"Vitamin A-intoxication in the pig"
https://doi.org/10.1055/s-0038-1623552

"Results: Three to four days after introduction of a certain food, 50% of the piglets suddenly showed lameness. Other symptoms could not be observed. Lameness improved after the food had been changed again, but significant deformations of the limbs remained. The development of the rump was less involved. X-ray- as well as pathological-anatomical examination revealed a premature closure of the epiphyseal growth plates in the limb bones. The result of a food examination showed a vitamin A-content of 195000 IU/kg and a vitamin D-content of 23300 IU/kg, being ten times higher than declared and one hundred times higher than requirements in both cases. No signs of hypervitaminosis D were obvious in the herd. Conclusions: Inspite of the short time of exposition and overdosing of both vitamins, symptoms are corresponding exactly with hypervitaminosis A. Clinical relevance: In cases of lameness in large numbers, possible faults in feed composition, e. g. vitamin A-content have to be considered."

#238 · April 22, 2024, 3:08 am

@david

You have a point however there was no control that was not fed the supplement and was continued on beta carotene. All the animals were slaughtered after a period of no retinol and no BC.

It would appear that the cattle that received the retinol but did not receive any BC show clear poisoning but we don't know for sure unless we can also see data for cattle that did not receive retinol but received BC until slaughter.

The lowest levels found in meat after a period of no retinol and no BC were about 400mcg/100g. Since there is no control there is no way of knowing if that level was due to overflow from the liver or not.

#239 · April 23, 2024, 1:55 am

@david

I don't know if you've already pointed this out but these three studies:

https://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10/tables/3

give further confirmation of how worthless this study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4785134/

is I think?

#240 · April 23, 2024, 2:01 am

@david

Ignore the previous post. I was looking at the wrong chart. The beta carotene measurements appear to be consistent with other studies.

All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

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