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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity
Once retinoic acid levels normalise and serum ascorbate levels remain consistently sufficient I would expect less photo aging.
Even less if the diet is high in tocopherols and tocotrienols.
It's a good idea to cover the face though.
10g lecithin contains 350mg choline. Beef contains 70mg per 100g. One egg contains 150mg. The AI to prevent liver damage is 550mg.
VLDL is how fat leaves the liver. VLDL uses PC to encapsulate triglycerides.
If a diet high in fat or sugar is eaten it can overwhelm the liver's ability to package all the resulting triglycerol into VLDL. This causes a harmful chain of events resulting in insulin resistance and liver damage.
A days worth of bile contains about 10g of PC. Dysbiosis can result in degradation of both bile and dietary choline.
I guess I never thought it was as simple as just getting more choline.
I don't think it's as simple as that but I do see choline deficiency as a major contributor to NAFLD. I wouldn't expect a carnivore diet plus lecithin to cure NAFLD. I would expect a balanced omnivorous starch based diet plus exercise plus sun exposure plus lecithin to result in fat loss.
Hi Tim @tim-2 Do you have a source for the 10 grams of PC in the day's bile ? Or rough calculation. It's very interesting to me if we only consume say 550 mgs of choline per day yet churn out 10 grams of PC. Is it PC being reused from the bile over and over ? Does it imply a lot of recycling or endogenous production ?
10g may be a bit high, let's say 7g. Reference is below. 7g of PC contains 910mg of choline. I assume almost all of it is recirculated, if you find out how much please let me know.
With a gastrointestinal disorder such as SIBO some choline will get degraded and lost from the biliary pool. I'm not sure how much.
With dysbiosis I think it's especially important for antimicrobials to be consumed with meat and eggs. Olive oil, garlic, fresh herbs. This will reduce TMA production and reduce choline degradation.
Phosphatidylcholine is also required for the assembly/secretion of lipoproteins (2) and for solubilizing cholesterol in bile (3). It undergoes enterohepatic circulation, with estimates of the amount of human biliary phosphatidylcholine ranging from 5 mmol (∼4 g) (4) to 10–20 g/d (5), thus possibly making a greater contribution to phosphatidylcholine entering the small intestinal lumen than dietary phosphatidylcholine (Table 1), the most abundant form of choline in the diet (7).
Quote from tim on April 14, 2024, 1:16 amOnce retinoic acid levels normalise and serum ascorbate levels remain consistently sufficient I would expect less photo aging.
Even less if the diet is high in tocopherols and tocotrienols.
It's a good idea to cover the face though.
10g lecithin contains 350mg choline. Beef contains 70mg per 100g. One egg contains 150mg. The AI to prevent liver damage is 550mg.
VLDL is how fat leaves the liver. VLDL uses PC to encapsulate triglycerides.
If a diet high in fat or sugar is eaten it can overwhelm the liver's ability to package all the resulting triglycerol into VLDL. This causes a harmful chain of events resulting in insulin resistance and liver damage.
A days worth of bile contains about 10g of PC. Dysbiosis can result in degradation of both bile and dietary choline.
Yeah my skin looked crepey on the very low vitamin A diet. I looked like I had aged 10 yrs overnight. I may be exaggerating lol. I already don't have many wrinkles. But for certain a UV of 12 does some damage! I am reconsidering the vitamin E thing, I find it to be very anti-estrogen and as I approach my 40's I like some youthful estrogen! I guess that's why it was paired with the progesterone. I tend towards low electrolytes low blood pressure and the kick your fat in the nuts guy said this about it:
Often Used With Catabolic Imbalance
-Catabolic from Empirical Labs (Need Practitioner Access Code)
Tocomin Tocotrenols (Need Practitioner Access Code)
-Vitamin E - Avoid with an Electrolyte Deficiency or Carb Burner Imbalance. (Best taken
with dinner, or before bed.)
Anyway that's when I just throw my arms up and say food only!
Quote from tim on April 14, 2024, 1:31 amI guess I never thought it was as simple as just getting more choline.
I don't think it's as simple as that but I do see choline deficiency as a major contributor to NAFLD. I wouldn't expect a carnivore diet plus lecithin to cure NAFLD. I would expect a balanced omnivorous starch based diet plus exercise plus sun exposure plus lecithin to result in fat loss.
Yeah maybe that's why carnivore can work okay because they are eliminating at least some of the problem with dysbiosis (not cured though) taking the burden off the liver. But yes I agree that starch based should in theory be the more healthy way to lose weight.
Quote from tim on April 12, 2024, 7:31 pmI'm not downplaying anything I'm questioning the toxicity of the sub 1 mcg amounts consumers are exposed to. I'm not boldly stating it's not a big issue as you did with electrosmog.
It makes sense to just assume that glyphosate is extremely toxic until one realises how much this would affect people's diet and lifestyle. One is basically restricted to only eating organic food prepared at home. According to you though even that isn't enough because organic foods can contain it. So it's important to really question how toxic it is before spreading information that will be a source of stress in people's lives.
It isn't a fact that glycine substitution occurs, it's a hypothesis.
Facts and Fallacies in the Debate on Glyphosate Toxicity
"First, Samsel and Seneff argue that since glyphosate can potentially form N-substituted glycine polymers known as peptoids (31), then it can also replace glycine in regular polypeptides. However, as peptoids are laboratory creations that do not exist naturally in living organisms, it is not valid to extrapolate from these laboratory-manufactured entities to suggest that glyphosate can substitute for glycine in naturally occurring polypeptides, which are biosynthetically and structurally distinct from peptoids. In this context, it is perhaps also noteworthy that to the best of our knowledge, there are no reports of glyphosate peptoids having been generated."
"Finally, direct experimentation has shown that glyphosate does not incorporate into proteins (33). In these studies, E. coli were cultured in the presence of high concentrations (1 g/L) of glyphosate and rescued by addition of aromatic amino acids in the culture medium. Analysis of these bacteria showed that they possessed proteins with the exact same molecular weight as in non-exposed control cultures (33), demonstrating that glyphosate could not have been incorporated in place of glycine. Alternatively, the culture of E. coli in the presence of glyphosate and 6-fluorotryptophan resulted in polypeptides containing this variant aromatic amino acid and no incorporation of glyphosate (34). If glyphosate had been incorporated into the proteins of these bacteria, a shift in protein molecular weight would have occurred and would have been readily detectable by the sensitive and accurate mass spectroscopic analytical methods employed in these studies (33, 34)."
You wrote:
I don't think her being a computer scientist/engineer makes her lack credibility, in fact I think people from this field seem to possess a unique insight that regular scientists in the current biomedical field are lacking of.
Computer scientists have to understand large systems well and in software engineering there is no error tolerance so one tends to develop strong attention to detail.
It's a different skillset though and it's illogical to blindly accept that someone from a different field without decades of experience in a biomedical field has more mastery than everyone in that field.
What I see more commonly is someone from a different field or someone that is of a relevant field but not a scientist thinking they know more about health or nutrition than they actually do and developing a following online while giving people very flawed information based on untested hypotheses or pseudoscience that contradicts known science.
You seem like a decent and intelligent person but many of the ideas you post about here come from people like that.
The article above also responds to Seneff's claims about CYP450.
I'll try to check out Leisk's work sometime.
@tim-2 Well it is usually these types of people who have the answers and protocols to solving certain health conditions such as Autism, CFS, autoimmunity etc. Mainstream research in the health sphere is often shaped by the preferences of the pharmaceutical industry, influencing the direction taken by scientists and doctors. This dynamic is why mainstream medicine lacks definitive cures and instead gives us bandaids that usually have other consequences. Sure there are people like Chris Masterjohn, Rhonda Patrick, Peter Attia who are somewhat better and can provide some good insight, but even so, I am not really of a fan of their suggestions for correcting health issues.
I accept that some of her work is just hypothesises, however I also saw a video yesterday saying that seed oils causing inflammation hasn’t been proven, yet most people who have an interest in bioenergetics or alternative health would disagree with this. You will likely find this is the case with most alternative health information, that is hasn’t been proven. But one of the reasons this is, is because conducting a clinical trial is extremely expensive, so it is usually only the pharmaceutical companies or government agencies that can afford them.
And while mainstream medicine and governmental bodies assert the safety of vaccines, many individuals and their families have firsthand experiences contradicting this assurance. Instances of vaccine-related harm, which exceed the portrayal provided by the government, highlights the discrepancy between official narratives and lived realities. So that is just one example of how mainstream science can get things wrong.
You didn't really address my points.
Nobody well known in the alternative health space has many answers. This is readily apparent. Many are giving bad advice and causing harm which is far worse than not being helpful.
One of the most basic determinants of good health is to be able to eat and drink anything without suffering allergies or sensitivities. From what you have written here it doesn't sound like you are at an high level of health, is that fair? So it's not really a strong argument when you make claims about so and so's information improving your health.
I've put in a lot of time over the years researching many different areas not just health. If I were to explain my broad perspective on the subject of health it would take me days to write up and I might sound insane to many or traumatize many. So I'm not going to do that.
Yeah carnivore starves the dysbiosis and removes plant allergens and plant compounds that a person may be sensitive to but it doesn't address causes.
My comment about vitamin E was about tocotrienols from the diet. The only possibility bad thing about low dose natural vitamin E I could find is that unsaturated E i.e. beta delta and gamma tocopherols and tocotrienols can degrade into fairly potent toxins, arylated quinones. This occurs with gamma tocopherol when soy oil is used for deep frying. It's not known how much is produced during metabolism.
Only a handful of scientists know about that though, it's deep in the scientific literature. Any other reasons from health influencers about why lose dose full spectrum natural vitamin E should be avoided is probably going to be questionable IMO.
My current thinking is that if one is depleting vitamin A or dealing with chronic illness that tocotrienol supplement I mentioned may be a good idea. For everyone else eating whole grains and legumes may be more appropriate.
Quote from Luke on March 19, 2024, 5:49 pmA significant portion of the commentary in the video relies on mechanistic studies, "Vitamin" science, and methylation science, which essentially constitute a large-scale psychological operation (psyop) orchestrated and sustained by pharmaceutical giants like Merck. The fact that Big Pharma often sponsors such research and promotes substances like methylfolate and "Vitamin" B6 serves as a clear indicator of their inherent toxicity. Folate, in all its forms (not limited to folic acid), is a potent neurotoxin. For example, the concept of a "folate trap" is unfounded; rather, B12 acts as an antidote to folate's toxicity.
Hi @Luke ,
Very interesting posts - thank you very much.
Would you be able to expand more RE: B vitamins and their toxicity? This is not something I had seen before... My most recent blood test (8 months ago now) said I was very low folate (reasonably high B12), which I took to be a bad thing.
I supplemented B9 for about a week, but tbh the pills made me feel nauseous so I stopped. I had figured that my poor metabolic and thyroid health was leading to elevated inflammatory markers and an inability to retain water soluble B vitamins as effectively as one should. But the idea that folate is toxic is ver interesting to me.
Apologies all - slightly off topic, but just a call back to an older post on page 2 of this thread...
Hey Andrew @andrew2
Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it!
I think I have a good sense on a couple of the concepts, but there are still several areas where I have much to learn.
When it comes to folate deficiency, identifying its negative health outcomes based on practical indicators is quite challenging; most of the information available is theoretical. While certain symptoms seen in malnourished and starving Africans are sometimes cited as evidence of folate deficiency's effects, solely attributing these phenomena to folate deficiency is unjustified. To me, it echoes the HIV/AIDS argument, where much of the "evidence" is drawn from cases involving starving, malnourished, or environmentally vulnerable individuals.
My folate levels are always on the lower end. However, even if (emphasis on “if”) blood tests were somewhat indicative of true folate status in the body and intracellular spaces, I'm completely fine with it since I haven't experienced any noticeable negative health effects. I don’t consume any “healthy” leaf greens, other high folate vegetation, eggs, or organ meats, as I am mostly carnivore. Most of the muscle meat carnivores are doing just fine, although they would likely benefit from adding in some soluble fiber. It’s impossible to completely avoid folate, but I would prefer to get under 300mcg daily.
B12 remains one of the most perplexing vitamins for me. I'm undecided on whether I'd advocate for supplementation. I do align with Dr. Garrett Smith's perspective that B12 levels tend to stabilize naturally when other aspects of health are addressed. Perhaps it would be useful to supplement for certain individuals, but I don’t really know. What I'm confident about is my skepticism regarding B vitamin supplementation altogether, except for Nicotinic Acid (though its classification as a vitamin is debatable) and Thiamine. Maybe riboflavin, biotin, and pantothenic acid supplementation could be beneficial, but I only incorporate them sporadically. Of course I avoid D3, Vitamin A, folate, and B6.
Examining the main funding sources for research on folate, B6, and methylation offers intriguing insights, particularly when juxtaposed with other vitamins such as niacin and thiamine. However, one might argue that this perspective leans toward conspiracy theory territory.
Exploring Reddit threads where users share their folate experiences is truly fascinating. Around 10% describe it as a miracle supplement, while the majority, roughly 90%, encounter negative reactions and seek advice on why it isn't effective for them. It's like stepping into a micro universe dedicated to troubleshooting folate intake optimization, tackling issues like B12 deficiencies, activating methylation processes, and experimenting with numerous additional supplements to boost folate tolerance and alleviate negative symptoms. It's a peculiar phenomenon to witness—a series of endless pursuits that often distract from what seems painstakingly obvious.
You mentioned struggling with metabolic and thyroid health. What specific observations have led you to that conclusion, and were you contemplating that it might be caused by folate deficiency?