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Amber O'Hearn on Carnivore Lowering Threshold for Hypervitaminosis A?
I liked how he looked. I've studied beauty a bit and I think we sometimes don't realize how much harmony plays a part. He's an Italian (assuming from the name) and they often have those round puppy dog eyes along with other rounded features and it all works together harmoniously. My kids tell me that some of the younger generations, because of social media, have a heightened idea of "perfection". They play with filters and things. I think he is a good example that nature works in a sort of fractal way.
I guess I'm diverting from the subject at hand. Although there may be a thing here in which people get "addicted" to ideas, they just glom onto them, even though they may not be the best idea. I know this has happened to me. Then you get what you want and you are like: what on God's good Earth was I thinking? Why wasn't I satisfied? Why did I obsess about this wrong thing?
Amber O'Hearn posted some more comments on carnivore and vitamin A on X.
I think there is definitely a problem with overeating vitamin A in the Carnivore community. I just think a lot of the rhetoric about it is overstated.
I think the most commonly overlooked factor is that the liver stores vitamin A and has a maximum capacity. This means that high doses could be fine for a long time and then suddenly even small amounts will be too much.
Anecdotally, many tend to only desire eating liver periodically. I suspect this comes from overload signals in between. If so, then eating to taste may be fine, but ignoring desire for nutrition reasons (or eating in forms that bypass taste) may be where the problem comes in.
Here are yet more comments by Amber O'Hearn on vitamin A and carnivore diets, from the first five months of 2024. These are all from X posts and I have combined them together, removing any context. Grant comes in for some praise!
I've literally had a post in the works on this for about five years and I have lots of scientific explanation forthcoming.
But if all you want is evidence for anti-correlation with success on Carnivore you can cross check with the major proponents throughout history.
Stefansson — says the need to eat organs on an all meat diet is a myth
The Bear — "avoid liver" is on his short list of how to do the diet
Surviving OG carnivores like myself, Kelly Hogan, Dana Spencer, Charles Washington, The Andersens— little to no liver, and/or adding liver causing issues
Modern influencers (post 2017)
Shawn Baker, Mikhaila Peterson — still Carnivore, no liver (except brief stint)
Frank Tufano, Carnivore Aurelius, Paul Saladino — insisted on liver, all selling supplements, ended up saying Carnivore doesn't work.
Then you can look at Grant Genereux's forum and survey. Many people there getting benefit from vitamin A elimination were on Carnivore+liver.
It's a real thing.
I'm going to disagree here. My post on this is about 100 years overdue, blah blah, but the thing is, retinol is structurally and functionally a lot like PUFA. We need a tiny amount and the liver stores the rest, but can only hold so much. It's not a problem until it is.
One serendipitous autopsy study found a third of subjects had hypervitaminosis A.
And liver from livestock these days has more than previously, because of supplementing. I think it's a serious potential problem in our community.
Carnivore dieters often do poorly on liver.
Hey, unmodded. I'm really glad that's working for you. I've been studying this for 5-6 years, I just haven't written much about it yet (other than what you can find on Twitter).
I have a lot of disagreements with a couple of those people you mention on the actual science of it. I think Grant Genereux's original work is more on point. As to being "stand up people", I tend to reserve that for those who aren't raging anti-semites.
I'm even more sorry 3 years later.
https://twitter.com/KetoCarnivore/status/1466803906755760130?t=kN92aRXJOKhRnQYM-iTn8w&s=19…
Over the course of the last several years, I've been persuaded that high Vitamin A intake is a huge problem for carnivore dieters especially.
Genereux did his work, reported it as carefully as he could for free, and then moved on to other things. He routinely admits to what he doesn't know.
This is very different from the attitude of Smith who decided he was going to make a living as a guru on the topic and who says things like "Don't read studies yourself, I'm the only one who can truly understand this." and then charges money for his expertise.
I don't agree with everything Genereux has concluded, but I have massive respect for him and the way he went about what he did.
I'm more inclined to think that retinoids are required in minute doses similar to polyunsaturated fatty acids than that they are out and out toxins. I'll elaborate in writing.
I watched some of Strong Sistas latest youtube video and I noticed how yellow her palms were.....
they used to be carnivore with lots of organs but now they are omnivore but I dont think they are aware of the vitamin A issue.
Quote from Inger on May 8, 2024, 8:52 amI watched some of Strong Sistas latest youtube video and I noticed how yellow her palms were.....
they used to be carnivore with lots of organs but now they are omnivore but I dont think they are aware of the vitamin A issue.
Suggest in the comments that they interview Grant.
Quote from kularity on May 8, 2024, 11:48 amQuote from Inger on May 8, 2024, 8:52 amI watched some of Strong Sistas latest youtube video and I noticed how yellow her palms were.....
they used to be carnivore with lots of organs but now they are omnivore but I dont think they are aware of the vitamin A issue.
Suggest in the comments that they interview Grant.
Great idea. It would be terrific to see some respectful discourse between Peaters and Low-A folks. Most of what we see is mockery and disdain between the two camps, but it would be beneficial to hear true dialogue between them. And Grant seems like an excellent choice for that because he carries himself respectfully.
On a related note (Peaters dialoguing with Low-A)... I did see that Brad Cohn and Chris DeVocht (@UnModded_Human) did a respectful Twitter space earlier this week, but I didn't catch much of it.
Quote from Inger on May 8, 2024, 8:52 amI watched some of Strong Sistas latest youtube video and I noticed how yellow her palms were.....
they used to be carnivore with lots of organs but now they are omnivore but I dont think they are aware of the vitamin A issue.
I suspect the Armstrong Sisters are well aware of vitamin A toxicity as they seem to be all over social media developments. They might just be believing what Ray Peat said about this issue, which is to ignore vitamin A toxicity, as far as I can tell. Of course, it is one possibility that the ramped-up metabolism the sisters aim for in their Ray Peat / bioenergetic approach helps with vitamin A detox and symptoms from that detox, although I really have no idea.
Switching gears, today's YouTube video with Georgi Dinkov of the Ray Peat / bioenergetic approach is quite interesting. Georgi says he is curing cancer in rats with B vitamins and aspirin! I am on the carnivore diet, so I don't agree with everything Dinkov says, but the video is quite interesting, if technical.
Quote from jjk_learning on May 8, 2024, 12:17 pmGreat idea. It would be terrific to see some respectful discourse between Peaters and Low-A folks. Most of what we see is mockery and disdain between the two camps, but it would be beneficial to hear true dialogue between them. And Grant seems like an excellent choice for that because he carries himself respectfully.
The Ray Peat Forum is hosted by a guy who switched to Dr Smith's detox diet and there are subforums on the Ray Peat Forum about the so-called "Low Toxin" diet, which is the low vitamin A diet. It does seem like the forum owner ran off some with pro-vitamin A views, so I don't know how much dialog is happening on that forum, although there may be some. I follow both camps on X and I haven't seen much productive dialog.
Sometimes Dr Smith's controversial toxic bile theory may get in the way of other discussions about the toxicity of vitamin A. Also, a lot of Ray Peat fans on the Bioenergetic Forum are not admirers of Dr Smith's interest in guns or other aspects of his personality.
Quote from Retinoicon on May 8, 2024, 3:12 pmQuote from jjk_learning on May 8, 2024, 12:17 pmGreat idea. It would be terrific to see some respectful discourse between Peaters and Low-A folks. Most of what we see is mockery and disdain between the two camps, but it would be beneficial to hear true dialogue between them. And Grant seems like an excellent choice for that because he carries himself respectfully.
The Ray Peat Forum is hosted by a guy who switched to Dr Smith's detox diet and there are subforums on the Ray Peat Forum about the so-called "Low Toxin" diet, which is the low vitamin A diet. It does seem like the forum owner ran off some with pro-vitamin A views, so I don't know how much dialog is happening on that forum, although there may be some. I follow both camps on X and I haven't seen much productive dialog.
Sometimes Dr Smith's controversial toxic bile theory may get in the way of other discussions about the toxicity of vitamin A. Also, a lot of Ray Peat fans on the Bioenergetic Forum are not admirers of Dr Smith's interest in guns or other aspects of his personality.
I have been following the Ray Peat Forum too (and the offshoot Bioenergetic Forum). There is certainly lots of disdain for Dr. Smith specifically and the Low Vitamin A concept by proxy.
It will be good if it can get to a point where the two sides don't just mock and scoff at one another but actually have meaningful dialogue.
As to your posting of Dinkov's recent video, it sounds interesting. I haven't watched it though, so I don't have anything useful to add. It's cool that you can enjoy and appreciate his work even if you follow a diet that he would argue is stressful and/or harmful. (Admittedly, one of the reasons I've never closely followed Dinkov's work is because my intro to him was him characterizing low carb/keto/carnivore type diets in a way that doesn't align with my experience.)
Quote from Retinoicon on May 8, 2024, 3:05 pmQuote from Inger on May 8, 2024, 8:52 amI watched some of Strong Sistas latest youtube video and I noticed how yellow her palms were.....
they used to be carnivore with lots of organs but now they are omnivore but I dont think they are aware of the vitamin A issue.
I suspect the Armstrong Sisters are well aware of vitamin A toxicity as they seem to be all over social media developments. They might just be believing what Ray Peat said about this issue, which is to ignore vitamin A toxicity, as far as I can tell. Of course, it is one possibility that the ramped-up metabolism the sisters aim for in their Ray Peat / bioenergetic approach helps with vitamin A detox and symptoms from that detox, although I really have no idea.
Switching gears, today's YouTube video with Georgi Dinkov of the Ray Peat / bioenergetic approach is quite interesting. Georgi says he is curing cancer in rats with B vitamins and aspirin! I am on the carnivore diet, so I don't agree with everything Dinkov says, but the video is quite interesting, if technical.
Are Georgi's results pretty consistent in curing the rats' cancer with B vitamins and aspirin? Does he speculate anything about its potential for applicability to humans?