Quote from ggenereux on April 16, 2019, 9:22 am

Quote from somuch4food on April 16, 2019, 7:50 am

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4649040A/en

The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.

I think Masterjohn is better off than most people with his high A intake since his entire diet seems to focus on nutrients that help deal with retinoids with a lot of animal proteins, eggs, dark leafy greens. These would provide ample amounts of choline, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol.

I think many different diets can work out if they are well balanced between damaging and healing substances. I do not think though that this balance is easy to achieve.

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Can we define a very low vitamin A diet that provides ample amounts of those same rescue compounds? What is missing in a diet made of say:

Beef, white and brown rice, black beans*, sauerkraut, sunflower lecithin?

Maybe include olive oil too? Then to cover all the bases, include supplements of zinc, vitamin C, and maybe brazil nuts / almonds as a safe source of vitamin E.

We can call this diet the “non-pharmaceutical rescue agent”.

*I know some people are reporting a bad reaction to the black beans. Thus, maybe the beans should not be included. But, if the beans are excluded then we’d probably need another source of calcium.

Grant

Quote from somuch4food on April 16, 2019, 11:16 am

I'll look into this. This has piqued my curiosity. I can't realistically go really low A without bringing more stress into my life. So, looking at factors that help properly using and depleting retinoids would probably be more practical.

Quote from John on April 16, 2019, 11:21 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 16, 2019, 9:22 am

Quote from somuch4food on April 16, 2019, 7:50 am

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4649040A/en

The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.

I think Masterjohn is better off than most people with his high A intake since his entire diet seems to focus on nutrients that help deal with retinoids with a lot of animal proteins, eggs, dark leafy greens. These would provide ample amounts of choline, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol.

I think many different diets can work out if they are well balanced between damaging and healing substances. I do not think though that this balance is easy to achieve.

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Can we define a very low vitamin A diet that provides ample amounts of those same rescue compounds? What is missing in a diet made of say:

Beef, white and brown rice, black beans*, sauerkraut, sunflower lecithin?

Maybe include olive oil too? Then to cover all the bases, include supplements of zinc, vitamin C, and maybe brazil nuts / almonds as a safe source of vitamin E.

We can call this diet the “non-pharmaceutical rescue agent”.

*I know some people are reporting a bad reaction to the black beans. Thus, maybe the beans should not be included. But, if the beans are excluded then we’d probably need another source of calcium.

Grant

Yes, I would be interested in a black bean alternative.   My eczema flared the past few days and hands feet and back joints have been swelling and inflamed but it could be a number of other things.   I've gone through about 12 can's of costco organic black  beans but worry I may not be taking them well.

Quote from Judy on April 16, 2019, 4:04 pm

Quote from ggenereux on April 15, 2019, 5:44 pm

Hi Judy,

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I just watched his video. He’s certainly a huge proponent of vitamin A. It is scary to hear about how much he’s been consuming, and it’s extremely concerning to think that he has a big audience and is giving that same advice to others.

Since he’s aware that so many people now have NAFLD, and that condition is associated with all kinds of other poor health issues, I wonder what he would make of this HHS patent where they induce fatty liver in animals just using retinoic acid.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4649040A/en

The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.

Obviously, the root cause of the fatty liver disease is not a choline deficiency, rather that the choline etc. is being exhausted due to the VA toxicity of retinoic acid. And, not surprisingly, the substances in their “pharmaceutical composition” are all readily available from food sources.

Of course, there are other studies showing that just vitamin A (not even retinoic acid) causes fatty liver and cirrhosis, such as this one:

Hypervitaminosis A-induced liver fibrosis: stellate cell activation and daily dose consumption.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16448456

I wonder if there’s anything we can do to have Chris re-evaluate his position?

There is an old saying that it is hard to get a man to understand something if his job depends on his not understanding it. Masterjohn has a new post up now about fatty liver, but I haven't read it yet.

Quote from Tropico on April 17, 2019, 2:39 am

Quote from ggenereux on April 14, 2019, 7:26 pm

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Hi Judy, 

I can see that some people could respond to cod liver oil or butter in a positive way in the short term. That’s because the oil/fat itself will very likely help emulsify existing serum retinoids and facilitate their quicker storage. Meaning that the benefit of just the oil and its emulsification capacity will offset the risks of the additional vitamin A.

However, in the long term, people will tip over into toxicity once the consumption rate starts to exceed the liver’s storage + detoxification rate.  Of course, there’s a limit to just how fatty and the physical size the liver can swell up to in accommodating the excess consumption.

So yes, for anyone supplementing with even moderately high doses I do think it is just a matter of time before it catches up to them.

I have been in contact with several people who were taking the WAPF FCLO, and they have suffered devastating health consequences because of it.

It would be interesting to understand the biological reason why additional vitamin A is beneficial in the short term, even when it is given without oil or fat, as a supplement.

According to this article, I improved vitamin A intoxication with a low fat (and low vit A ) diet as retinol conversion is lower with little fat...

Changes in hepatic vitamin A (retinol) and carotenoid stores in gerbils after 14 days on high fat (30%) vs. low fat (10%) diet (Deming. 2000)

I tried to increase olive oil and fat meat but nothing changed, I don't eat butter but maybe it has a greater capacity to emulsify circulating retinol.

Quote from YH on April 17, 2019, 5:19 pm

@tropico

Did you gain any weight when you increased the meat and oil?

According to this study, high fat diet could be problematic because it increases retinol concentrations in vital organs and adipose tissue, while lowering serum levels.  I think this is what produces those Vitamin A "deficiency" signs, when it is really an improper diet.

High-fat diet enhanced retinal dehydrogenase activity, but suppressed retinol dehydrogenase activity in liver of rats.

Zhang M1, Liu C1, Hu MY1, Zhang J1, Xu P1, Li F1, Zhong ZY1, Liu L1, Liu XD2.

Author information

Abstract

Evidence has shown that hyperlipidemia is associated with retinoid dyshomeostasis. In liver, retinol is mainly oxidized to retinal by retinol dehydrogenases (RDHs) and alcohol dehydrogenases (ADHs), further converted to retinoic acid by retinal dehydrogenases (RALDHs). The aim of this study was to investigate whether high-fat diet (HFD) induced hyperlipidemia affected activity and expression of hepatic ADHs/RDHs and RALDHs in rats. Results showed that retinol levels in liver, kidney and adipose tissue of HFD rats were significantly increased, while plasma retinol and hepatic retinal levels were markedly decreased. HFD rats exhibited significantly downregulated hepatic ADHs/RDHs activity and Adh1, Rdh10 and Dhrs9 expression. Oppositely, hepatic RALDHs activity and Raldh1 expression were upregulated in HFD rats. In HepG2 cells, treatment of HFD rat serum inhibited ADHs/RDHs activity and induced RALDHs activity. Among the tested abnormally altered components in HFD rat serum, cholesterol reduced ADHs/RDHs activity and RDH10 expression, while induced RALDHs activity and RALDH1 expression in HepG2 cells. Contrary to the effect of cholesterol, cholesterol-lowering agent pravastatin upregulated ADHs/RDHs activity and RDH10 expression, while suppressed RALDHs activity and RALDH1 expression. In conclusion, hyperlipidemia oppositely altered activity and expression of hepatic ADHs/RDHs and RALDHs, which is partially due to the elevated cholesterol levels.

 

 

Quote from Judy on April 29, 2019, 4:07 pm

Quote from Judy on April 16, 2019, 4:04 pm

Quote from ggenereux on April 15, 2019, 5:44 pm

Hi Judy,

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I just watched his video. He’s certainly a huge proponent of vitamin A. It is scary to hear about how much he’s been consuming, and it’s extremely concerning to think that he has a big audience and is giving that same advice to others.

Since he’s aware that so many people now have NAFLD, and that condition is associated with all kinds of other poor health issues, I wonder what he would make of this HHS patent where they induce fatty liver in animals just using retinoic acid.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4649040A/en

The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.

Obviously, the root cause of the fatty liver disease is not a choline deficiency, rather that the choline etc. is being exhausted due to the VA toxicity of retinoic acid. And, not surprisingly, the substances in their “pharmaceutical composition” are all readily available from food sources.

Of course, there are other studies showing that just vitamin A (not even retinoic acid) causes fatty liver and cirrhosis, such as this one:

Hypervitaminosis A-induced liver fibrosis: stellate cell activation and daily dose consumption.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16448456

I wonder if there’s anything we can do to have Chris re-evaluate his position?

There is an old saying that it is hard to get a man to understand something if his job depends on his not understanding it. Masterjohn has a new post up now about fatty liver, but I haven't read it yet.

One more gem from Chris Masterjohn--he got spontaneous fractures in his teeth from 25,000 ius of vit. A a day, but continues to take more!! That's what I was taking when I got vit A poisoning:

How to Manage Your Vitamin A Status | Chris Masterjohn, PhD  chrismasterjohnphd.com/2018/08/16/manage-vitamin-status

“Vitamin A / Vitamin D ratio has been a mystery for me for a couple of years now, recommendations vary from 1:1 to 1:10 ratios. I am trying to improve my dental health, but with a Vitamin A dose of 25,000 and D 10,000 a day I got spontaneous fractures in my teeth, so I am following a 1:1 ratio now and will see how it goes.”

Quote from Liz on April 29, 2019, 9:48 pm

Quote from Judy on April 29, 2019, 4:07 pm

Quote from Judy on April 16, 2019, 4:04 pm

Quote from ggenereux on April 15, 2019, 5:44 pm

Hi Judy,

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I just watched his video. He’s certainly a huge proponent of vitamin A. It is scary to hear about how much he’s been consuming, and it’s extremely concerning to think that he has a big audience and is giving that same advice to others.

Since he’s aware that so many people now have NAFLD, and that condition is associated with all kinds of other poor health issues, I wonder what he would make of this HHS patent where they induce fatty liver in animals just using retinoic acid.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4649040A/en

The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.

Obviously, the root cause of the fatty liver disease is not a choline deficiency, rather that the choline etc. is being exhausted due to the VA toxicity of retinoic acid. And, not surprisingly, the substances in their “pharmaceutical composition” are all readily available from food sources.

Of course, there are other studies showing that just vitamin A (not even retinoic acid) causes fatty liver and cirrhosis, such as this one:

Hypervitaminosis A-induced liver fibrosis: stellate cell activation and daily dose consumption.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16448456

I wonder if there’s anything we can do to have Chris re-evaluate his position?

There is an old saying that it is hard to get a man to understand something if his job depends on his not understanding it. Masterjohn has a new post up now about fatty liver, but I haven't read it yet.

One more gem from Chris Masterjohn--he got spontaneous fractures in his teeth from 25,000 ius of vit. A a day, but continues to take more!! That's what I was taking when I got vit A poisoning:

How to Manage Your Vitamin A Status | Chris Masterjohn, PhD  chrismasterjohnphd.com/2018/08/16/manage-vitamin-status

“Vitamin A / Vitamin D ratio has been a mystery for me for a couple of years now, recommendations vary from 1:1 to 1:10 ratios. I am trying to improve my dental health, but with a Vitamin A dose of 25,000 and D 10,000 a day I got spontaneous fractures in my teeth, so I am following a 1:1 ratio now and will see how it goes.”

Wow. .. His teeth fractures and he still believe vit A is esseltial and keeps on taking it?! I dont know what to call that.. (well I do but that would be a bit rude)

Judy have you made any comment on his blog? Esp regarding you getting poisoned from the same dose. He could really benefit from reading grant's books.

Quote from Judy on April 30, 2019, 3:27 pm

Liz, I posted a comment on one of his earlier posts about vit. A. (He responded with, "thank you.") I have posted my experience on FB too. He's been doing a series on vit A which may have been triggered by my comments.