Discussion

I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.

Forum Navigation
Please to create posts and topics.

Antidote?

PreviousPage 2 of 8Next
Quote from puddleduck on March 31, 2023, 8:48 am

So interesting, @pattycake! 😃 Of the members here, I would guess @tim-2 eats the most lard.

Here are some more quotes from “On the Nature and Role of the Fatty Acids Essential in Nutrition” PDF you linked above that stood out to me:

“The results with butter are of particular importance since the butter adds appreciable amounts of vitamins A and E to the diet without improving the animals’ condition.”

*-*-*-*

“Butter and coconut oil are the chief table fats and beef fat is probably equally poor as a source of unsaturated acids. It is possible that our high carbohydrate and protein diets, carrying very little of the unsaturated oils, are contributing factors to poor health.

“The addition of egg yolk and cod liver oil to diets may often improve the patient because of the fatty acid rather than the vitamin content.

“For example, cures of anemia with cod liver oil have been reported and it has been shown that there is a relation between experimental anemia and the unsaturated fatty acids of the blood plasma (44, 45).

“The prevalence of dry skins and abnormal kidneys may be directly attributable to improper fat intake. The nerve tissue, kidneys and other organs contain several unsaturated acids. If the liver is limited in its ability to produce these acids, they should be plentifully supplied through the diet.”

*-*-*-*

“...there is the much earlier work of McCollum, Halpin, and Drescher (40) which was concerned with the phospholipids of hen’s eggs and is therefore of even more vital interest. The production of egg yolk by hens is another case of long continued and rapid lipoid synthesis. The above workers showed that when hens are maintained on a low fat ration the iodine number of the phospholipid falls from a normal of 63 to 34, while for the ordinary fats it falls from 64 to 52. The phospholipids are more seriously affected than the ordinary fats, and again it would seem that another warm blooded animal is definitely limited in its ability to synthesize highly unsaturated fatty acids.”

*-*-*-*

“It is evident that vitamin E does not affect the well being of the females on the fat-free diet sufficiently to improve ovulation.

“It should be pointed out here that in the study of the effects of the well known vitamins carried in cod liver oil and wheat germ oil the results may be confused by the use of the whole oil rather than just the non-saponifiable fraction. 3 drops daily of cod liver oil or of wheat germ oil will cure badly diseased animals when these animals are suffering from a lack of essential fatty acids. Many of the ordinary diets used in nutrition may be deficient in this respect.

“Although Fraction E has no effect on ovulation, curative oils cause an immediate resumption of ovulation in those females in which ovulation has ceased. The figures cited above show that in less than 50 per cent of that special group was ovulation regular. About half of these animals had not ovulated at all. The animals which are not ovulating at all provide fine material for testing the effect of fats on ovulation. Four examples are given in Table V. Those animals which received 5 drops daily of corn oil, olive oil, or linseed oil ovulated within 5 days after the dose was begun; i.e., vaginal smear changes were resumed as quickly as though they were castrated females receiving a daily injection of ovarian hormone.

“On the other hand, the coconut oil, which is not a curative oil, did not cause the resumption of ovulation.

“It is an almost invariable rule that every animal which is receiving a curative oil and has resumed growth also ovulates normally (a cycle every 4 to 6 days). We need not interpret this as meaning that these oils contain a fatty acid specific for ovulation.

“Ovulation may be considered as dependent upon the general well being of the animal, a function which suffers when the animal is in poor condition or its metabolism is low. The added oils so improve the animal as a whole that normal ovulation is resumed.

“But much work indicates that the ovarian hormone is a lipoid and certainly its method of extraction shows it to be closely associated with the cell lipoids. Furthermore, the resumption of ovulation is so rapid that growth has hardly begun. Because of these facts, as well as the effects of fat upon the male (see Table VII), we are inclined to the view that the synthesis of ovarian hormone ceases when fatty acids are eliminated from the diet because the fatty acids are closely associated with the hormone.”

*-*-*-*

Personal experience: I did quite poorly on a low-PUFA diet. Patricia Kane and Brian Peskin helped me understand why, but I didn’t realize that a deficiency of omega 6 could’ve caused ovulation to stop... 😐 Yikes.

I look forward to your further posts on this subject!

These quotes are quite interesting. Karen Hurd is a huge fan of oils and her protocol is no sat fat and all oils (all of them except the high SFA ones) and she states once you start eating this way make sure you start using protection unless you want to have children because you are guarenteed yo become pregnant within a few months time.

Ancel Keys (who was a brilliant researcher by the way and all the crap talking about him is not true, which anyone who have actually read his works would know) was very pro oils and real food (not packaged palm oil + sugar crap), especially olive oil. He practiced as he preached and lived to be 100 years with all marbles intact. And he was a huge fan of beans as well. So much so, that he actually wrote a book about them.

Both Karen and Ancel state that rancid oils are easy to spot, as they will taste and smell bad and should not be eaten. Which makes me think of CLO and how many people forced that down the pie hole because it was supposed to be good for you despite the taste and smell. Karen is anti-dairy when healing, after healing a little bit of cheese or yoghurt no problem, but keep low SFA for life. Ancel is pro low fat milks as it is a nutritious food. And also pro cheese but only high quality ones used as a condiment on pasta and not as a meal in itself. Like done in Italy. Actually their similarities are so much alike I am pretty sure Karen has read Ancels work.

Personally I never had any success with low PUFA (or coconut oil for that matter). I have been notoriously low/no fat my whole adult life except for the LCHF/Keto period where I stuffed myself on butter and high fat animal products and it severely messed me up. I have had a lot of issues described at the top. Never thought it could be related to EFA deficiency so that is a new fresh take on all of it. I do wonder how much a few drops for a rat would equal for a human. It also makes me think of a fitness girl named Pauline Nordin, who had been stuffing herself with no fat diet and tons of daily carrots for years. She developed a rash all over her body for quite some time and she tried everything to get rid of it. One of her followers told her it most likely is a fatty acid deficiency so she took a supplement with arachidonic acid, an omega 6 fatty acid, and the rash went away. That was peobably 10 years ago and the first time I started re-evaluating PUFA's, and I had forgotten all about it... if I remember correctly, lard has a lot of arachidonic acid...

@salt probably not wise to stuff oneself with anything (which no one is suggesting). Isn't that what got most is in trouble to begin with? Stuffing ourselves with whatever because it was supposed to be healthy?

 

 

puddleduck, Eio and 5 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckEioAudreyNavnPJTommyAndrew B
Quote from salt on March 31, 2023, 7:40 pm

Yes, clearly the cure for vitamin a toxicity is to swallow the egg yolks, drink the milk, force down the liver, and ingest as much seed oil as possible.

@salt

Unsaturated fatty acid intake doesn’t necessarily mean consuming large amounts of ultra-processed toxic seed oils.

I’m interested to see what else PJ has to say on this.

I get what you’re saying though, seems like there’s a trend here to consume more VA foods. Such a contrast to before when people were scared of consuming tiny amounts of beta-carotene. I’m really struggling to understand why people here are consuming dairy though, can’t wrap my head around that.

puddleduck, Eio and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckEioDeleted userDonald

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't it mentioned by the Ray Peat community that a way to get rid of PUFAs is to eat a bunch of sucrose/fructose? Why would that be seen as a positive if that were indeed the case? Sugar in high amounts hasn't shown to have many benefits that I am aware of. So why would this seemingly essential purging of PUFAs from the body be seen as a good thing when it is tied to a substance that has so many negatives? Just a thought I had.

puddleduck, Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
puddleduckDeleted userAndrew B
Quote from Jessica2 on April 1, 2023, 7:16 am

@tommy I've personally chosen to add dairy because I've not been convinced that casein is "wrapped in VA" somehow. I need more evidence for that. Similar to "lard factor" this is an idea discussed exclusively here and weston a price nutters and I find evidence not compelling. And also I enjoy dairy and never had issues with it before. I personally believe the supplementation of it with VA is probably what makes it bad, as well as possibly pasteurization and the lactose content. I eat full fat yogurt and cheeses,  low in lactose both, as I please with no issues. I refuse to be scared of "poisons" in my food anymore. It caused a lot of stress and issues for me I don't need.

Outside of the fact that dairy is high in preformed VA (and potentially RA due to pasteurisation), it’s been linked to:

- autoimmune disorders( type 1 diabetes, neurological diseases, IBD, rheumatic diseases and more)

- cancer (biggest link to prostate cancer)

- acne (whole milk - strongest link)

- other issues depending on existing intolerances/allergies

Not all countries supplements milk with A and D (mine certainly doesn’t). Yet you’ll find that the countries with the highest dairy consumption, regardless of supplementation tend to have the highest rates of chronic disease.

I’m assuming most people in this forum are here because they are dealing with some form of chronic illness (I am).

So out of all the foods that could be restricted for the purpose of healing, based on Grant’s theory and just based on common sense dairy would be the first on the list given the amount of red flags.

So my question to you is, if you’re not restricting dairy, what are you restricting?

@tommy why I have added dairy back in is explained in my log. It has helped me tremendeously. But there was a time when just a small piece of cheese would give me itchy rash within 30 minutes. That is not the case anymore.

For me, being able to eat all foods is a sign of true healing. I am starting to believe vA should not have to be problematic unless deficient in some or another whatever, we don't know yet. Or unless being foolish and going full retard on whatever high A foods like liver (like some of us have). One should not have to live Grant style continously, which some have and not gotten better. Why have they not, when Grant has? 

I have overcome several food allergies as well as my worst vA sensitivity. Heck, two years ago I would burn holes in my socks just from walking in warm weather. Every day!!

I have lived in many different food prisons most of my life. It sure has done nothing for my health but make it worse, creating God knows how many nutritional deficiencies and imbalances. I eat most foods now, expect most veggies, and all organ meats (as in none of them). If I have else but low ox foods, I add dairy so the calcium can bind to the oxalate, and I feel better than I ever have in my life.

 

puddleduck, Rachel and 8 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckRachellil chickAudreyNavnPJTommyDeleted userAndrew BDonald

I love Ancel Keys, but didn’t know he wrote a book about beans! So cool, @liz. Makes sense Karen Hurd would be a Keys fan. 😎

Back in the day, my mother called the company selling the rancid cod liver oil promoted by the WAPF to ask if the bottle had gone bad because it smelled so terrible, and they said it never goes bad, because it is “fermented.” 😑 Fortunately, we didn’t finish all of that bottle, and never bought it again... (But we had forced down some of it.  🤢)

Interesting that low-PUFA was unsuccessful for you and also Pauline Nordin.

I just found an abstract that intrigues me:

Many of the features of zinc deficiency and of essential fatty acid (EFA) deficiency are similar in both animals and humans. The two agents interact in various ways. EFAs are important in zinc absorption, probably after conversion to prostaglandins (PGs).

Zinc seems necessary for at least two stages in EFA metabolism, the conversion of linoleic acid to gamma-linolenic acid, and the mobilisation of dihomogamma linolenic acid (DGLA) for the synthesis of 1 series PGs. Zinc may also be important in the conversion of DGLA to arachidonic acid and in arachidonic acid mobilisation for 2 series PG formation.

These interactions shed considerable light on a number of clinical syndromes, including acrodermatitis enteropathica, total parenteral nutrition, diabetes mellitus, the glucagonoma syndrome and sickle cell anaemia. There is substantial evidence to suggest that anorexia nervosa is due to a combined deficiency of zinc and EFAs. Understanding of the roles of zinc and EFAs in these various clinical situations is likely to lead to improved therapy.

source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0306987780901255?via%3Dihub

I have a couple Beau’s lines on my big toes, which I suspect in my case means I am still struggling with a zinc deficiency, despite aggressive supplementation.

It seems zinc deficiency is common in people doing this experiment, though not everyone deals with it, of course. I wonder if EFA deficiency is a factor limiting zinc absorption for some of us?

Liz, PJ and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
LizPJMargoDeleted user
Quote from Liz on April 1, 2023, 9:14 pm

 

... Heck, two years ago I would burn holes in my socks just from walking in warm weather. Every day!!...

 

 

Interesting!  Have you seen my thread about clothing?  I also suspect that my sweat is breaking down chemicals in clothing and causing problems.  Of course, in a perfect world clothing wouldn't have chemicals hahah.   I suggest anyone interested in the thread should read it backwards from the end because it has evolved.

I think this is why older people end up with staining in the arm and leg pits.  Because they are breaking down the dyes in their clothing.   Maybe because their bodily fluids are filled with things like detox enzymes?

https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/latex-has-carotenes/?part=6#postid-21560

puddleduck, PJ and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
puddleduckPJAndrew B
Quote from Jessica2 on April 2, 2023, 9:25 am

@puddleduck. Very interesting, as I was taking Evening primrose oil for some time with very good results. Evening primrose oil is high in GLA. It seemed very good for my skin and I think it helped with generalized muscle pain. I am ordering more today.

@jessica2 EPO is what convinced me I had an EFA deficiency. I have had palpitations since before beginning low VA. I tried B12 and it helped for a while and then stopped, same with potassium.  When I took the EPO, the palpitations stopped within 10 minutes. I started wondering if it was just the "drug" effect that Smith likes to attribute to pretty much anything but his few "essential supplements".  However, I have been able to take less and less to get the same effect.  Now, I cant help but wonder if I should be taking some of the derivatives for the omega 3s, since EPO just addresses the omega 6 derivative GLA.  I think I may have an impaired delta 6 desaturase pathway and thus have a hard time converting LA/ALA to their perspective derivatives. I do not like fish, most fish oils are rancid, and algae is high in VA.  

Uploaded files:
  • Captureme.PNG
puddleduck, Armin and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckArminMargoDeleted userAndrew B

I'm now thinking I might be deficient in EFAs. Maybe EPO could help thicken my arm hairs (or at least help to not lose them entirely during detox phases), not to mention my eyebrows and lashes, which used to be way more thick. Nothing seems to help them anymore.

puddleduck, Navn and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
puddleduckNavnPJDeleted userAndrew B

Here are some excerpts from a letter by Dr. Patricia Kane, sent to the parent of an autistic child on Thursday, October 14, 1999:

Implementing nutrients is a confusing process, especially fatty acids! 

Children with hyperactivity, upon examination of their red cell membrane lipids, tend to be deficient in ALL the essential fatty acids. Children with autistic features have a very different presentation as explained in the following:

Children with autistic features present overall with an elevation of arachidonic acid as well as a buildup of
very long chain fatty acids (fatty acids above Carbon 20 chains). Every child to date (over 900) has been
depleted in GLA and DGLA which is reflective of the need for supplementation of these fatty acids
present in evening prim rose oil. Many (not all) children with autistic spectrum disorder have had an
elevation of EPA and DHA (omega 3 fats or fish oil) which is a reflection of their autoimmune
presentation. This does NOT mean that forever more we discourage the use of fish oil or flax oil but
rather there is a SEQUENCE to stabilizing lipid metabolism. Omega 6 fats must be implemented and
stabilized before we add the omega 3 fats. Patients who build up very long chain fatty acids (pts with
chronic fatigue, metal toxicity for example) also require the addition of omega 6 (prim rose oil) FIRST.

Once we stimulate the beta oxidation (or burning of fats within the cell) we stabilize detoxification, the
immune response, and the production of prostaglandins. If a child has not had proper testing then adding
JUST flax oil or JUST cod liver oil or JUST Efalex really could make the child's symptoms worse.

What are the right general fats to give a child with autistic spectrum disorder? Begin with 6 capsules of Efamol Evening Prim Rose oil (squeeze out and add to food (no taste really) and a few teaspoons of freshly ground organic flax seed (Store in freezer!). After about 6 weeks you may add one capsule of Efamol Omega Combination (non rancid fish oil) for a child who can swallow OR two capsules Nordic Naturals DHA JR.

COMPLETELY remove hydrogenated fats from your child's diet-margarine, processed oils, hydrogenated fats, Crisco, Cool Whip, commercial salad dressing-it all has to go. Nothing will shut your child's immune system down faster than margarine.

Oils to avoid that contain very long chain fats include canola oil, peanut oil and peanut butter and mustard. These fatty acids irritate the nervous system and the liver.

Use liberal amounts of pure oils such as Omega Nutrition 800-661-3529 or Flora in your child's diet adding 1 to 2 Tablespoons of Sesame, Safflower, Sunflower, or Walnut oil per MEAL. Just mix this good oil right into their food. If your child loves french fries then fry organic frozen cut fries in Omega Nutrition coconut butter. Use organic, raw ground seeds and nuts in your child's diet as they are extremely rich in minerals and lipids. Grind dry in the blender and add to homemade (hopefully gluten free) muffins, pancakes, cookies, meatloaf, and so forth.

Patricia Kane’s website is currently broken, but the complete letter and more of her communications are here:

http://onibasu.com/archives/am/727.html

Her research into which health conditions tend to go along with which fatty acid imbalances and deficiencies is fascinating. If only she had a YouTube channel...

Rachel, Audrey and 4 other users have reacted to this post.
RachelAudreykathy55woodPJDeleted userDonald
PreviousPage 2 of 8Next
Scroll to Top