Quote from Tommy on April 4, 2023, 1:47 am

@pattycake

I was having a hard time wrapping my head around this because the mice did fine on this diet. Whereas in the original studies Grant provided, that was suppose to prove VA deficiency even without the fraction AD, the mice did not survive. This study, on the otherhand includes, casien, lard AND VA (fraction AD). Again, the mice do fine.

 

I’m confused and unsure of what you mean by this, could you please explain further?

Quote from PJ on April 4, 2023, 12:19 pm

@tommy

In the original VA deficiency research study that Grant used to determine that the mice were poisoned, he tried to establish that the casein as well as the lard had hidden VA in the form of retinoic acid because of the manner of processing.  The following was the diet used.

Casein (“deactivated” milk protein)
▪ Starch (usually corn starch)
▪ Salt mixture
▪ Lard (rendered pig fat)
▪ Brewer's yeast (or vegemite yeast)
▪ Distilled water

Grant notes:

"The same diet yields the same results over and over. 

Almost all animals fed this diet became seriously diseased, and most died
within just ten weeks.

Other “deficiency” diets with vitamin-A included producing
the same disease conditions – flashing red lights!"

 

 

Of course, the experiment by Burr and Burr (that I made reference to in the original post) changed two variables, they added VA and D, but everything else remained.  If you refer back to his book (chapter 5 - poisoning for profits) Grant notes that in a later experiment, where they added in VA the animals were spared but they changed 3 variables,  they used cod liver oil and/or butter, as well as Vitamin D. 

So I was having a hard time understanding, in the experiment by Burr and Burr, where they still used the lard, casein, and Fraction AD, that the mice were fine.  When Grant was so sure that the lard and casein combo was deadly. It was only after they took out the fat factor that the mice in this instance became ill (with symptoms that I think mirror the VA toxicity symptoms that Grant experienced) and they thus pursued which fraction of the oil worked best to cure the poor little critters.

Did this help?  There's a lot of information to convey.

Quote from Tommy on April 4, 2023, 3:20 pm

Okay that makes sense.

In the original experiment by burr and burr that you linked, they were actually able to induce xerophthalmia in the rats when they removed the fraction AD.

I would like to see @ggenereux (wont let me tag him for some reason) take on this as this would be in direct contradiction to his theory.

Quote from Tommy on April 4, 2023, 4:28 pm

@ggenereux2014

Quote from PJ on April 5, 2023, 12:30 am

@salt

Someone made a post on Smith's LYL program about his observations and our current standing with VA and at the end said, "Every poison has it's antidote. Finding it is the only trick." I replied with simply, "PUFA's".  and I do not think one person thought I was serious because we have all been indoctrinated, "to avoid seed oils like the plague."(-Saladino and the general health-promoting community) Even Grant stated in his book, "Well, it just might turn out that this expert advice regarding supplementing with omega 3/6 oils is going to be a complete and colossal disaster for our national health." (I think he may be referring to fish oil as the previous paragraph implies -page 34-35 Extenguishing the Fires of Hell, not specifically seed oils containing LA/ALA )

Brian Peskin wrote a book entitled, "The Hidden Story of Cancer" and at the very beginning he conveyed the exact conclusion that I have recently come to understand, that I needed to "fact check" almost everyone (including Smith, Saladino, Ray Peat etc). It takes a frick ton of time and I can understand why not many people want to commit their time that way. Peskin says,

"Nobel Prize-winner Richard Feynman said it best when he commented on a fundamental quantum physics question in which all the “experts” had been proven wrong: “Why, if the interaction really involved V and A instead of S and T, had everybody been so certain [wrongly] that it was S and T? It turned out that all the experts had been quoting, some second or third hand, from one experiment [which was wrong]… Since then I never pay attention to anything by ‘experts.’

I calculate everything for myself.” 1

... never rely on consensus that is so often incorrect."

 

1 A Life in Science, John and Mary Gribbin, Penguin Books (Dutton), New York,1997, pag

 

From what I am gathering about seed oils, is that you do not need much, the sicker you are, the more you may need. and keep it clean  -Organic, cold pressed (nitrogen flushed), designed for health.  (I think it really can be as simple as, much of the misunderstanding is because most of the oils are adulterated (processed) and/or rancid rendering them non-functional and damaging.) Most fish oils (providing derivatives - only small amounts needed) are rancid, and taken in "suprapharmacologic" quantities.   Liver and seed oil would be a very bad combo. Other than the obvious reason, I will tell you why on another post. 

 

Anyway, long story short, Grant makes suggestions throughout his book, the idea of emulsification of VA with some fat, but it appears that he was uncertain as to the best one for the job.  When I saw this study, to me it seemed to potentially give the answer.  

 

 

 

Quote from Donald on April 5, 2023, 6:42 am

@jessica2 Are you sure about the Borage oil? Weren't you on the autism spectrum like some others on this site, and myself, too? If I have misremembered, my apologies! Seem to be many spergies on this forum. Might be able to put that in the vA toxicity symptom list.

Puddleduck posted this link:
http://onibasu.com/archives/am/727.html
Ans. # 1: Borage oil contains VERY long chain fats (VLCFAs) and would be inappropriate as a source of
gamma linolenic acid or GLA for most children with autism. Efamol Prim rose oil is the best source of
GLA. (Borage oil is high in GLA like prim rose but contains VLCFAs that would be irritating to the liver
and CNS).

I have tried both Evening Primrose Oil and Borage Oil as well (for HPU/Hemopyrollactamuria). And I think I did better on on Evening Primrose Oil. Of course I don't know about any of this and I am just taking snippets from these articles. And besides that we all have different issues.

Quote from PJ on April 5, 2023, 2:34 pm

Quote from Jessica2 on April 5, 2023, 2:03 pm

 

For someone like me and those of us here super concentrated on health, we could indeed be suffering from lack of a >quality< omega 6. I haven't been that religious about getting walnuts or any nuts and sunflower seeds and I do avoid the mega bottles of supermarket oil like the plague. I also avoid fast fried food and even if someone DID indulge in that, it seems the omega 6's are probably damaged and/or rancid. And I've actually kind of avoided nuts BECAUSE they contain omega 6's, crazily enough

 

 

 

Many of us have been avoiding nuts/seeds due to copper...

At the time I started the low VA, everyone was talking about draining and rinsing all the fat from their meat. and while Smith says frequently in his videos that he does not advocate a "low" fat diet, he always stresses staying away from oils...I inadvertently went very low fat and it really messed me up.  

Quote from Margo on April 5, 2023, 3:49 pm

@jessica2  and @pattycake, do you know what level of VA is in EPO? I can’t find data online, and I will pay for it if I underestimate it 😅

Quote from Inger on April 6, 2023, 12:20 am

I am in the same boat, have been avoiding nuts, also they made my gallbladder not so happy... But now I can digest them just fine, aftr having been on the bean protocol for 2 months, yay 🙂 🙂 .

I get cravings for nuts once in a while now, and i can eat the whole bag at once - about 140 gram. Roasted salted nuts.

And then, it takes days when i dont crave nuts at all, and then after not having them for a while i crave them again! Its crazy 🙂 must mean there is something in them my body really likes.

I am going to follow my cravings about nuts, after what I read here it seems like an intelligent craving 🙂