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Bruising
Quote from lil chick on July 5, 2023, 8:36 amIt could be that it isn't necessarily a sign that EPO is hurting her, but rather that perhaps the work the body is doing is causing some other nutrient to bottom out?
My intuition tells me that it may be detoxing excess estrogen? Hence the bruising. I will stop it for now and see how it goes.
Interesting, I never knew that about estrogen. But I see it when I google. I wonder if red face might also be aggravated by estrogen.
This nutritionist suggests histamine as a marker for potential methylation issues (she is aware of the hypervitaminosis A component, too 🙂):
1. Undermethylation: https://butternutrition.com/signs-of-undermethylation/
2. Overmethylation: https://butternutrition.com/signs-of-overmethylation/
Chris Masterjohn has written a lot about it, as well (though he thinks liver is a superfood 🙃):
https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/mthfr-protocol
He has a tool on his site where you can upload your 23andMe data to calculate your choline requirements based upon his referenced ideas, which may or may not be totally accurate. But it does tell you the specific SNPs (single nucleotide polymorphisms) that are affected, supposing any are. So you can look into them for yourself.
I haven’t been tested. Right now I’m guessing based on the Butter Nutrition symptom list and my reactions to supplements and foods. I don’t have much knowledge or experience in this area beyond that. Sounds like Meredith Arthur will be writing more about it though.
Oh right, and here’s how B12 and folate deficiencies can relate to oxalate symptoms potentially:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/can-b12-and-folate-help-detoxify
Hope all this isn’t more confusing than it is helpful, @audrey. I’ll send a message to the gal who knows more about dosing B12. For people without methylation issues, or people who are over methylators, the Adenosyl/Hydroxy B12 form Jessica mentioned may work better, yeah. Pure Encapsulations is an excellent brand, which carries it.
Sometimes little tweaks can make a big difference if you find the right ones. 🙂 And you will.
Just listened to this short audio recording from Chris Masterjohn about B12 from food and how to best absorb it:
https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/010-getting-enough-b12-vegans-omnivores
Apparently the B12 in eggs isn’t all that absorbable. I didn’t know that. So if you’ve been skipping meat some days in favour of eggs, maybe that alone could be lowering your intake a bit from what it was prior?
In his book, he says Hydroxycobalamin is the best supplement form.
Thank you @puddleduck 🙂 I also didn't know that about eggs! Some days I don't eat meat. I'll check out everything you've shared 🙂
@puddleduck I have signs of both under and over methylation.
@audrey Hey, I'm the one who @puddleduck was referring to in regards to my B12 knowledge. I was diagnosed with pernicious anemia in 2020 so I've learned a lot of about B12 since then. There is a lot of confusing information about B12 so I'll try to clarify.
If you have tested chronically low for B12 in the past then it is either from a lack of B12 in one's diet, lack of absorption, or depletion from an outside source. If you eat plenty of fish, meat, dairy and eggs then you should not have low B12 - so if you do then it's important to investigate the why. Some things deplete B12 like vitamin A toxicity, covid, pregnancy, breastfeeding, illness, alcohol, surgery and stress. Many medications deplete B12 or block its absorption including metformin, omeprazole and other antacids, birth control pills, Flonase, prednisone, certain antibiotics, certain pain killers, and the list goes on. There are also many disorders that cause malabsorption of B12 including SIBO, gastritis, low stomach acid, H.Pylori, celiac disease, autoimmune pernicious anemia (intrinsic factor antibodies or parietal cell antibodies). And lastly there are things that render the B12 in your body useless like nitrous oxide (laughing gas) or insufficient folate. Given this list it's easy to see how B12 deficiency is more wide spread than people realize.
Bruising could be caused by lack of B12. It could also be caused by lack of iron. Without adequate B12, iron can get low. I saw that you mentioned when you supplemented B12 you did not supplement folate. This is counter to expert recommendations as folate needs B12 in order to work and B12 needs folate in order to work so it is important to supplement them together, especially when doing B12 injections. I do B12 injections daily for PA and I need 5000mcg of folate for that rate of injections (my B12 injections are 1000mcg each so that shows you the high demand for folate whilst on injections). That being said whenever I notice I bruise more easily or my bruises don't heal quickly I take vitamin k and the issues stops in a few days.
Lastly I'll touch on the forms of B12 because this is the part where there is the most confusion and misinformation. There are 4 forms of B12 that are sold as supplements. Hydroxocobalamin, cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. You can think about them in two categories. Hydroxocobalamin and cyanocobalamin are two "inactive forms" of B12 and once in the body they are converted into methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin which are the active forms of B12. So obviously then we can but methyl and adenosyl in the category of "active forms" of B12. This means a person can take either hydroxocoblamin or cyanocobalamin OR a combination of methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin. It is not an option to ONLY take methylcobalamin OR to ONLY take adenosylcobalamin because then a person is getting only one of the two active forms they need. Many people make this mistake because methylcobalamin has been heavily marketed as the "active" form of B12 that the body does not have to convert. This is true, however the body ALSO needs the other active form of B12 which is adenosylcobalamin. Why is methylcobalamin sold by itself then? I don't know...stupidity?
The best place to start when supplementing B12 is a hydroxocobalamin sublingual pill. Sublingual will avoid the common malabsorption issues. You will also want to supplement folate alongside B12. If your body does not methylate well then hydroxocobalamin may not work for you and you will instead need to supplement adenosylcobalamin + methylcobalamin. There is genetic testing you can do but you can also just experiment with the forms. I am an undermethylator so I feel absolutely nothing when I take hydroxocobalamin and folic acid. However I feel an immediate difference when I take methyl/adenosyl and methylfolate. If you are on OVER methylator then methylated supplements will make you feel like you are on speed and keep you up all night.
To summarize:
Hydroxocobalamin - Longest half life (lasts longest in the body). Breaks down into the two active forms in the body. Best to start with. Should be taken with folate.
Cyanocobalamin - If hydroxocobalamin doesn't work, or doesn't work well cyanocobalamin may work better. It's all individual. Many people have reported this. Also breaks down into the two active forms in the body. Should be taken with folate.
Methylcobalamin + Adenosylcobalamin - The two active forms of B12. Already active, the body doesn't need to covert them. Must be taken together - you cannot recover from B12 deficiency if you only supplement only one or the other, your body needs both. Should be taken with folate.
Overall you should experiment and see which form of B12 works for you as long as you follow the rules above.
@angelicarose I deeply appreciate you taking the time to share this and explaining about all the different B12 forms. And you too @puddleduck, for initiating.
Dr Greg Russell Jones has very interesting videos on B12 and also sells a transdermal methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin spray, very efficient.
Quote from Audrey on July 6, 2023, 11:21 am@puddleduck I have signs of both under and over methylation.
Sorry for the delay in response, @audrey. Had a busy weekend.
But yeah, so have I, actually! When I was severely toxic in vitamin A and deficient in many nutrients, I developed many of the under-methylator symptoms, which I’d never had as a child (clinical depression, OCD, phobias, allergies, perfectionism, etc) but my life-long patterns are moreso in the over-methylator column.
I am just learning about all this, so I certainly don’t know my approach is correct without genetic testing, but the two main factors I used to guess my potential methylation problem were my reactions to antihistamines (completely unhelpful) and methylated B vitamins (make me super wired and hyper—see the bolded text from Angelica’s post below). I also do not react negatively to high-histamine foods.
“If your body does not methylate well then hydroxocobalamin may not work for you and you will instead need to supplement adenosylcobalamin + methylcobalamin. There is genetic testing you can do but you can also just experiment with the forms. I am an undermethylator so I feel absolutely nothing when I take hydroxocobalamin and folic acid. However I feel an immediate difference when I take methyl/adenosyl and methylfolate. If you are on OVER methylator then methylated supplements will make you feel like you are on speed and keep you up all night.”
Thanks so much for the informative post, @angelicarose! 🙂