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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
To be clear, I'm not really recommending coconut oil. I just think that, of the plant-derived fats, it is probably the healthiest due its saturated profile and its resistance to oxidation.
I'm not really recommending lard either, but I think overall it is healthier than plant-derived fats. The smell of heated lard actually makes me kind of nauseous. A bit of fat on a cut of pork is OK, but the amount of fat found on pigs these days is absolutely appalling, and that can't be a good thing. I've butchered pigs over the past 3 years and they've literally had about 2 inches of adipose fat in places! I probably wouldn't hesitate to eat the fat off a wild boar, but domesticated pigs are another matter...really depends on what they've been eating.
Also, I think I've noted this several times before, but I find that liquid fat of almost any kind is momentarily nauseating (it actually elicits an odd burp reflex), yet solid/cold fat is delicious. A teaspoon of liquid tallow by itself makes me almost gag, but I could probably eat a quarter cup of solid tallow without batting an eye. With plant-derived fats, the taste of the phenols and other compounds is an added layer of disgust. I continue to wonder if this is some kind of indication of the types of fat humans have evolved to eat (e.g. we most commonly ate fats that were solid at room temperature), and the state in which we evolved eating them (e.g. we ate them either raw or cooked on the animal, but not rendered separately from the meat). I'm not sure what the adaptive advantage would be for a revulsion to liquid fat though...seems like any kind of fat we could get into our mouths in prehistory would have been a net advantage to survival.
Hi there
I'm new to this VA toxicity thing and only recently came across Grant Genereux and Garret Smith. I'm a 4 Year carnivore and am trying to get rid of the VA that I ate from A TON of liver and kidneys (plus all the plants before that on keto).
Is it enough to eat a muscle meat only diet (lion diet style) to deplete VA stores over time? Are there any supplements necessary (Molybdenum, K2, Charcoal...)? I heard that most bile gets reabsorbed if there is no fiber/charcoal to bind it. Have you found that true?
I listen to a lot of Dr. Smith's livestreams and it seems that he thinks humans are not meant to eat a high fat diet!? He is super smart and must have thought that thru. He says that in nature animals are super lean (wild game or even cows that are not domesticated) and there is not much fat in grains, legumes, fruits and veggies. He also states that a high fat diets damage the bile ducts, can cause fatty liver and ruins Bifidobacteria in the gut. I'm absolutely confused where he is coming from.
We know through evolution that humans are adapted towards carnivory and that we hunted FATTY animals preferentially. Also rice and beans which are recommended have a shit ton of plant toxins. Beans could kill you if eaten raw. Why should that ever be a staple in the diet???!
I would love to hear your opinions and recommendations on how to go about a VA detox on carnivore (ruminant muscle meat only of course).
Thanks so much.
@Nina, I am on the same diet for whatever it is worth. Based on some academic research that has been discussed on this forum several times, if you eat grain-finished beef I feel there will be less vitamin A to absorb with the fat you are eating. However, there is no direct evidence on someone eating this way who has measured serum vitamin A that are low, while there is such evidence from lower fat dieters like Grant and one or two other people posting on this forum. They have finished a detox by serum vitamin A levels.
I am eating moderate fat cuts from Whole Foods like trimmed ribeye and New York strip but am thinking of increasing the fat to address some moderate constipation that has cropped up.
@grace, did you happen to take zinc before the vomiting session? I have so much trouble taking zinc.
This is how I do it lately, after a full meal I cut a zinc pill to about 1/3 the size, chew it, drink something. And even that I'm worried to do it. I don't do it often. I mostly experiment with zinc now and then when my tinnitus gets bad, since I've read so many times it is related.
My chronic vomiting seems different than what you described, but I will describe it for you just in case: It usually happened after a large meal, and usually about 11 PM, although there were a few exception, usually related to travel. I would get severe nausea, gut pain, panting, runs, pacing, shivering, nose blocked/running. Any vomiting was typically dry heaves. This would continue for about two hours, until, exhausted, I would finally fall into bed and sleep for 6 hours or so, waking with a horrible headache and feeling like hit by a truck.
It was like a poisoning, and I think my body believed it was poisoned. My thoughts are that these sessions happened when my bucket of "ability to take in poisons like VA" was full ... and that in the case of travel the vertigo also was feeding the brain's idea that it was poisoned.
My vomiting sessions were about monthly but slowed down a great deal over the first year.
Zinc can make my stomach hurt real bad, but I haven't thrown it up.
For the record, I like butter. Wait, that's a lie, I LOVE BUTTER.
To me, butter is, far and away, the most delicious thing nature has ever provided to humans.
I have severely cut back on my butter consumption. But it is still the fat I purchase.
Coconut oil has fallen by the wayside because it's not tasty. If I kept cows I'd probably use a bit of tallow for cooking. Hubs can't do pork fat so lard is out. I haven't experimented much with reserving sheep fat, but may try that some day. Olive oil on salads only. Never have bought any other vegetable oils and won't be starting. I eat an egg a day, and hubs eats 2. (as I said, I'm on the slow boat), so we get some egg fat. Is egg fat a thing ?
If you were to imagine the perfect amount of fat in a diet, perhaps the ratio of fat to protein in an egg is a good example? It makes a whole chick after all.
We generally eat eat drippings from cooking meats. After roasting a chicken I throw out the large gobs of chicken fat that cling to the chicken skin (which I also trash), make broth, and allow whatever remains as fat to be part of soups.
I eat nuts and I suppose get some fats there.
My BM's are generally good now (knock on wood) Like clockwork. And not really like guacamole haha. Very occasionally I will get dehydrated and that will bind me a little. Sometimes a dinner from a restaurant will affect my bowel badly, and I suspect this is because of cheap fats. My lower G/I handles legumes like peanuts and beans so much better now, no cramping, gas or runs with my usual legumes (still afraid of trying some that have been trouble to me, like chick peas).
@wavygravygadzooks and @lil-chick, on the topic of oxlates I did some research.
From: https://www.hormonesmatter.com/secondary-hyperoxaluria-when-dietary-oxalate-accumulates/
“Keep in mind that oxalates are common plant toxins that can be found in virtually all plant foods. Many of the foods considered the healthiest, including spinach, Swiss chard, almonds and other nuts, beets, gluten free grains, turmeric and many spices, can be significant sources of oxalate in the diet. The challenge is that oxalate foods may be robbing you of minerals, creating pain and inflammation, and potentially affecting a host of systems in the body.”
The author also speaks to oxalate building up in many tissues on autopsy that were ‘normal’ during a person’s life. These can cause inflammation, arthritis is one example they cite:
“Some researchers have made the connection from arthritis to secondary hyperoxaluria. In an article from 2013, the authors point out that oxalate is able to gain access to the joints and synovial fluid, where oxalate can cause arthritis that is clinically indistinguishable from other crystal-induced arthropathies.”
We can all benefit from less inflammation in our tissues.
The author: “I suggest that we might want to examine whether oxalate is affecting us slowly, over time. Perhaps we could reduce or even avoid some of the chronic inflammatory conditions, which are now epidemic in our society.”
Here are some oxlate levels:
Beans and Low VA Veggies
Navy Beans 1 cup 152mg
Potato c skin I med 97mg
Turnip 1 cup 60mg
Bamboo Shoots 1 cup 35mg
Refried Beans 1 cup 32mg
Parsnip 1 cup 30mg
Kidney Beans 1 cup 28mg
Nuts
Almonds 28g 122mg
Cashews 28g 49mg
Peanuts 28g 27mg
Pistachios 28g 14mg
Pecans 28g 10mg
Grains, Flours and Powders
Rice Bran 1 cup 281mg
Buckwheat Groats 1 cup 133mg
Wheat Berries cooked 1 cup 97mg
Corn Grits 1 cup 97mg
Soy Flour 1 cup 94mg
Bulgar cooked 1 cup 86mg
Cocoa Powder 4t 67mg
Brown Rice Flour 1 cup 65mg
Cornmeal 1 cup 64mg
Millet cooked 1 cup 62mg
Whole Wheat Flour 1 cup 29mg
Soy Protein Isolate 28g 27mg
Brown Rice cooked 1 cup 24mg
Lasagna Pasta 1s 23mg
All Purpose Flour I cup 17mg
Couscous 1 cup 15mg
Spaghetti 1 cup 11mg
White Rice Flour 1 cup 11mg
Does anyone else besides @lil-chick eat nuts? What type? I occasionally eat macadamia nuts but they didn’t make this ‘high’ list. I like pecans and read they were good for detox symptoms. I guess I will be avoiding almonds.
I like grits but with cheese so avoiding them is not a problem. I had thought to use honey with them but now I will just avoid.
Looks like my brown rice has some and I definitely eat more than 1 cup in my 2 daily meals.
Per reading, a low oxalate diet it 50-100mg/day. Brown rice is 24mg/cup and Kidney beans are 28mg/cup- so I am definitely getting close to 100mg/day.
I have not had potatoes- but maybe stay away from those on any kind of regular basis. @lil-chick ‘s experience with potato chips and foot cramps. Interesting to think about- thanks to you both for bringing up this topic.
@wavygravygadzooks, My increasing N/V began on a keto diet. On that diet my bowel issue was constipation. From Nov 2021 until I stopped the diet approx. March 5th 2022 I was nauseated every day and vomiting most days.
The vomiting comes on very suddenly and is a complete evacuation of anything in my stomach- during keto this was often just my AM meds that I would take 1 hour prior to breakfast. That is an awful experience because those pills taste awful when combined with stomach acid and bile…
This most recent 1 episode of vomiting while on low VA was not preceded by nausea. I’ve had no N on low VA. I just got this ‘ut-oh I’m going to V” feeling and tried to sit with it to try to prevent it- that was successful for about 5 minutes- a long time in my previous experience of sudden onset, immediate V on keto.
On the solid fat thing- is this something your purchase? I did not know you could purchase tarrow.
Oh also- I have not been on Garret’s site at all- too much reading to do here and I need to spend some time on book 2.
Hi Lil-sassy-chick,
I do take zinc regularly and have since mid- 2020. Zinc plays a vital role in antiviral defense but cannot get inside our cells without an ionophore.
Due to the status of my immune system (very suppressed) I have been taking 100mg of elemental zinc- to get this I take Zinc Citrate 50mg 3 qam/pm. There are different ionophores for zinc but the easiest to acquire is Quercetin. So I take 500mg of Quercetin with the zinc twice daily.
I personally like to know where people get their supplements or what brand they use. To that end, I use:
Zinc Citrate 50mg 3 twice a day from 21st Century (US produced)
Quercetin 500mg 1 twice a day from Windmill (also US produced)
You might change the type of zinc you are using and see if that makes a difference for you. I could probably reduce my daily dose in 1/2 so that would just be 3 zinc tabs or 50mg of elemental zinc. I was on the higher dose when I was going for so many hospital tests for my GI issues. I also use a very dilute iodine solution in the nose prior to exposure to the public.
In looking for research, I came across this:
“There are many reported cases in the medical literature regarding the overuse of zinc without countering or balancing it with copper. Zinc is crucial to immunity, nonetheless too much can deplete copper and causes immune and biochemical imbalance.”
Source: https://www.hormonesmatter.com/copper-for-mitochondrial-immune-and-thyroid-health/
I hear people on here talking about copper excess (I think- I have not paid much attention to this topic, I need to be more aware). I may have created a copper deficit with my zealous Zinc defense strategy. (I have no B cells so I cannot take the C19 vaccine, rather I can take it but it will not work without B cell activation- now I’m kinda glad I didn’t- different topic).
@lil-chick, in case my salutation didn’t grab you- my vomiting both this recent episode and the ones on the keto diet came on so fast and were so complete that it left me completely exhausted and without appetite. They came on mostly in the AM and sometimes after my AM Rx meds and while I was getting out things for breakfast. So it presented very differently.
I am sorry about what you describe- yours sounds completely awful.
So this was before the low VA diet? I think a high VA diet pushed me from chronic VA toxicity to acute VA toxicity last fall.
The day prior to this episode I wrote that I had my 2 portions of ‘mix’ and an ACV drink. I don’t think I ate anything else that day to set this off. The ACV drink was just before bed. I doubt that had anything to do with this.
@lil-chick, eggs are the only source of complete protein on the planet in a single food. They include all the essential amino acids a body needs. They are indeed the perfect food by that measure.
I have not heard of egg fat being a thing- even egg cholesterol is not a thing anymore- scientifically speaking.
I have pondered on keeping chickens but I am afraid of the varmints they might attract- in my area snakes (poisonous rattlers most concern me). But I am snake-phobic and one of my little chihuahua’s is a ‘snake dog’- found this out when moving to the country. Apparently any breed can be a snake dog- it is specific to the dog. He has stared down a snake hidden in the grass that I only realized was a snake when he lifted his head up to look at BB- or get a better scent. He has brought in parts of snakes (though doggie door) and one was a rattler that I think was killed in an early spring mow. The rattles were obvious). If a rattler bites an 8# dog, he is a goner… So I'm a bit snake obsessed.
We also have coyotes because there are several natural springs and pop up post-rain rivers that run through the property- enough to keep their prey handy. We do occasionally get the odd bobcat but I doubt they would come close to the house for a chicken or an egg- they want the coyote! But more likely get the rabbits…
I am unsure on the right fat ratio in the diet. This diet is so new to me that I have not calculated fat intake. I am just trying to get the basic food set- what to eat, what to avoid, hidden sources of VA, etc.