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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
I wouldn't have been convinced about the bile acid thing until I heard Karen Hurd's story. Being poisoned by a pesticide is pretty serious and the rapid improvement when she began giving fiber couldn't have just been coincidence.
I've been doing more of the Dr Lawrence Wilson development program than anything else lately. It includes lots and lots of root veggies, crucifers, and onions. Yes I questioned whether I should be eating beta carotene or other so called 'plant toxins', but my cholesterol numbers were just getting worse and worse ever since I stopped eating veggies and beans back 10 yrs ago. So it's worth a try! Grant also wasn't only eliminating vitamin A he was also eating fiber in the form of beans. The rapid improvement in his health could be attributed to the fiber alone.
Nina that first Instagram post about the 6 1.5 teaspoons of black beans was mine lol. I don't know how it got on Instagram cause I posted it on Facebook
But yes that's what my line of thought was too along with coffee enemas used on the Gerson therapy that's cured thousands of people of cancer to you name it where the coffee stimulates the liver to contract and the bile carries out toxins. I've done ton 100s of them in the past and I always get nasty smelling junk and things i don't recognize in the toilet along with a sense of relief after with energy for the next 8 hours that is nothing even close to the jittery energy in coffee. Besides all 3 cups of the coffee just gets dumped back out and the energy remains. CE is proposed to be a liver detoxification method seemingly exactly what would be needed by all of use. Then of course there's Whole generations of people consuming beans in South n Central America and live healthy lives into their 90's not to mention India with there beans. This topic has to be resolved..
This is a post Paola made on Oct 30
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‘Many in the VA-Detox space (Paola Dziwetzki as well) talk about how toxic bile is and what kinda damage it can do when it gets shoved up the liver and somehow gets into the blood stream. Is there any truth to that? Why should the body produce something so toxic that could kill its own tissues? I don't think there is any truth to that theory.’ - Nina.
@nina Just wanted to explain this a bit, from my understanding, as I think grasping this has been a major leap forward in my understanding of my own health. I’ve posted somewhere here that I don’t agree with the Garrett Smith model calling all bile ‘poison’ and talking about it like it’s evil. However, I do agree with his theory of bile in the blood.
Bile is a very necessary fluid. It has many uses. Fat digestion and toxin excretion are two of them. It’s neither good or bad. It just is. We need it. However, bile should exit liver, go to gallbladder and then go into small intestine and large intestine and out. Bile salts are recycled via the enterohepatic circulation. This is separate from systemic blood and just returns them to the liver. This is the closed loop.
Where it becomes an issue is leakiness. Leaky liver (cholestasis) and leaky gut. Also I believe bile reflux and leaky oesophagus is an issue for some (me). This is how bile gets into systemic blood. This is how it causes problems. It’s the leakiness that’s the issue. Bile gets into the wrong places. Once bile (containing toxins) is in the blood then it can go to kidneys, skin and brain. The brain can be a particular issue if the blood brain barrier is also leaky (that darn leakiness again!).
Many things contribute to increased leakiness. Lack of choline is one. Covid is another. There are many. It’s very common.
Thats a description of what is happening when we get toxicity symptoms, from my current understanding. Bile/toxins in the blood getting where they shouldn’t be. The actual symptoms will depend on individual differences, what toxins are involved and particular susceptibilities.
"Paola is still carnivore she is just playing with beans looking for improvements now."
lol, people's definition of carnivore is all over the place. To me, she's not carnivore if she's eating beans with any regularity.
I have not tried ox bile or anything like that when doing low vA. I was digesting fats just fine before I removed vA, so after I removed vA and I started having awful GI problems, I figured my body was just doing what it is designed to do, and trying to intervene with that process using artificial bile salts was not a good idea. This is a huge problem in medicine...people always think we need to intervene with the body's innate knowledge because we humans in our infinite wisdom [infinite idiocy, really] think we know better than the body, but the body has evolved its mechanisms over millions of years and is best left do its thing. The best support is trying to put it back in the environment in which it evolved most and for which it is best adapted, and for me the carnivore diet is part of that environment. People are always begging for symptom relief and turning to drugs/plant compounds, which is often hindering the body's innate processes (e.g. taking anti-inflammatories to reduce a fever is compromising the body's ability to fight off an illness for which is generated the elevated body temperature). The one "intervention" I think I can stand behind is nutrient supplementation if done slowly and carefully, although that is also begging to create imbalances in many situations.
I've been trying to eat more rare steaks lately and I get the feeling it is giving me worse symptoms. If that's true, I figure it might be due to the retention and absorption of more water-soluble vitamins that are otherwise destroyed by heat, which then fuels detox processes. Alternatively, maybe I'm not digesting it fully, but I don't think that's the case.
The person talking about relieving kidney pain by eating black beans doesn't seem to have considered the possibility the pain is coming from oxalate dumping, and that eating oxalates is expected to stop the dumping, just like eating Vitamin A is expected to stop Vitamin A dumping. It does seem incredible that such a tiny amount of beans would do what it's doing, but to me that's the most likely explanation. Kidneys are way more likely to get damaged by oxalates than by Vitamin A.
I get so tired of people saying things like "This made my liver let go of its Vitamin A stores. I know this for a fact..." They don't know shit unless they MEASURED it directly, it's complete speculation. The liver is meant to store excess Vitamin A so it doesn't damage the rest of the body, that's why you get hepatomegaly with Vitamin A toxicity: the liver grows in order to store more of it. One possibility is indeed that the liver let some Vitamin A into the blood, but that should make the person feel better, not worse. The more likely possibility is that stores of Vitamin A OUTSIDE the liver are getting emptied into the blood in response to a drop in serum levels, and the release from tissue storage is what creates the symptoms. Unless you measure levels in the liver constantly, you don't know the source of the Vitamin A in the serum and which direction it is flowing.
As @jaj suggested, bile is a combination of bile acids/salts that are needed for fat absorption and are expected to get recirculated to the liver, and waste products that are expected to get pooped out. The body produces all kinds of substances that are extremely harmful to it if they are not dealt with properly. Bile acids can be very caustic in the wrong environment, so you certainly don't want them traveling anywhere they're not supposed to be. When someone actually has cholestasis, that is indeed a very serious condition. I think dipSmith is using that term extremely liberally to describe lots of states that are not actually cholestasis, and I think Paola has not allowed that there are other reasons for pale stool (e.g. fat it the stool) that do not involve lack of bile flow. If you don't have bile flow, you should get jaundice, although I'm not sure how long that takes to show up or how restricted the bile flow has to be to cause it. But again, if you have green poop and you're not eating vegetables, my opinion is that can really only be from bile, which means your bile is flowing properly out of your liver and gallbladder.
Interesting idea that more rare/raw meat causes detox symptoms due to higher amounts of nutrients. I had the same thought.
@everyone
You know what? As @wavygravygadzooks suggested, the smartest thing probably is to just eat a ruminant muscle meat and fat only diet (no fish, no sea food, no eggs) and to just wait it out. To remind oneself that weird symptoms and markers probably are due to the VA detox and not due to the diet not working. (this is VERY hard though).
A few more things: Yesterday I had a cup of coffee and I could immediately go number two. (It was darker and bigger and didn't float) What does coffee (not caffeine pills) have to do with bile flow and elimination? It also made me feel better mentally. My drive and motivation came back and my low mood got better.
I've also been showing symptoms of ADD. Could that also be due to VA? Has anyone experienced it?
Also: Is anyone on HRT? I feel weird since starting bio identical oestrogen therapy and not sure if I should continue. My bones are osteoporotic and I don't have more room for error. My body just doesn't produce it's ow estrogen. I still don't understand why? Yes, I move a lot but I don't do high level sports (just walking and hiking), I've been eating quite a bit of fat lately and levels are still lower that those of a 80 year old women. Is there a connection between oestrogen/progesterone and VA too? This can't be just due to "stress"...
Thanks everyone!
@nina just to let you know that oestrogen is related to cholestasis, slowing phase 3 of liver detoxification. Chris Shade talked about this on the videos I listened to. I know very little about hormone replacement therapy but I have the feeling that Pharma are trying to over medicalise menopause to make money. I personally would not take because of my genetics, so I haven’t researched the pros and cons.
How much time passed between drinking coffee and having that darker sinking bowel movement?
Liquids ingested alone should get absorbed pretty quickly in the small intestine, but I think it still takes several hours minimum for any residue or bile excretions to reach the colon, and several hours more at minimum to transit the colon and be released as a bowel movement, so if you had a bowel movement within a few hours of drinking the coffee it seems unlikely that the contents of that bowel movement had anything to do with the coffee. The coffee did likely stimulate the bowel movement though, that effect seems to be pretty well documented (probably due to caffeine or some other compound putting your peristalsis and nervous system into overdrive).
Can you think of anything else you did different in the past day or two that might have affected the stool composition?
The plant compounds in coffee probably do stimulate bile flow if their route of detoxification is through the bile. I'd imagine some of those compounds come out in the urine and some come out in the stool via bile, though I can't say with any certainty. The question I always have with this and other "hormetic" effects of plant compounds is, what is the net effect on your body's toxin load and resources? If plant compounds boost your glutathione levels, does that mean you are wasting glutathione and its constituent elements to get rid of those plant toxins? Wouldn't the body elevate its glutathione levels on its own without plant compounds if it was necessary and beneficial? It just makes no sense to me that you need to ingest toxins in order to release other toxins. Maybe the body is preparing itself to mitigate damage from ingestion of more plant compounds by revving up your detox systems prophylactically if, in the environment in which these systems evolved, the intake of such compounds typically occurred for extended periods of time when there was an absence of animal foods in the diet.
I've felt periods of ADD on my low Vitamin A diet when I never experienced anything like it before. It seems like it comes and goes over longer time frames. Seems like there are always a variety of routes by which Vitamin A dumping could cause various symptoms, either via direct toxic effects to the nervous system, or via nutrient imbalances like low B vitamins, or via metals like copper, or via hormone imbalances. This is why getting to the root cause of "syndromes" and chronic illnesses can be so damn tough, there's just so many ways to wind up with the same symptoms! As Bret Weinstein loves to say, "Welcome to complex systems!"