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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
I do believe @wavygravygadzooks is onto something, since the only two reasons you'd have diarrhea on carnivore is if you end up with undigested protein in the gut, or you have bile acid malabsorption, and given his description of the situation, the malabsorption does seem at least partly intentional.
I will mention that I was having gas at times on carnivore when I started to introduce liver.
Yeah, my extremely short-lived time on Reddit consisted of my trying to make a single post asking about Vitamin A toxicity and the moderators not allowing me to make a very benign post simply asking about people's experiences. I definitely don't trust much of what gets posted over there about carnivore diets.
I don't know any other carnivore dieters in person, so yours is a good reminder to take any online experiences with a grain of salt. Unfortunately, it's all I have to go on aside from my own experiences and the books I've read. I wouldn't say Saladino did a 180 though, he's still eating primarily meat and fat. I certainly don't blame him for stopping strict carnivore, and I'm not claiming that strict carnivore is necessarily optimal, but he doesn't seem to be getting any substantial nutrients from non-animal foods except a tiny bit of carbs...maybe just enough to not have to make glucose from gluconeogenesis.
Please don't presume that I'm not "adapted" yet. I've taken very careful diet and symptoms records for years now. I was actually leaning towards constipation on a nearly carnivore diet until I removed the rest of the Vitamin A from my diet (liver, eggs), and then I started getting insane watery diarrhea almost overnight. I was on a high fat diet and moderately high meat diet before I went carnivore...I digest my meat and fat just fine. If you read my earlier post in full, you would see that my gas symptoms begin around 12 hours after my first meal, which is approximately the amount of time it takes food waste to reach the colon, and that I started getting burning and yellow liquid in my stools that was never present before removing Vitamin A. Additionally, the gas I get is usually odorless...if it was from meat decomposition, it would probably smell like sulfur (which I've had plenty of in the past). So where else is that gas coming from if it's not from bacterial decomposition of a carbohydrate that's not in my diet?
I've tried supplementing fiber on a carnivore diet, it just makes my GI symptoms worse. My digestion is way better without any fiber. I accept the diarrhea only because I'm convinced it part of the detox process (most acute toxicities involve diarrhea and/or vomiting) and because other people seem to be taking an eternity to make progress on a fiber-heavy diet while often having new problems show up along the way. Sometimes pain means gain, and I suppose I'm betting that my relatively short-term pain is better than suffering at a lower level for a longer period of time.
@wavygravy, how long has the diarrhea been going on? In my experiments with high fiber diets, when I alter my diet, I can expect about a week of wild swings in sleep pattern and stool type before it settles down. I've been almost a week on Grant's diet, and my sleep cycle is just starting to settle down, and my stool is starting to get darker again. 100% brown rice, no white rice. So, good fiber levels. Also, no diarrhea.
If you ever want to try something fun, do 100 grams of dietary fiber per day for a few months. After the first week, the effects are amazingly good. I was doing fiber from 30 different plant sources. But you do have to get through the initial week or two of weirdness. Be ready to take the week off work. When well balanced, the fiber smoothie is almost flavorless, like a slightly sour water.
Also, do you still have your gall bladder? That can affect your bodies ability to adapt to fiber.
Yep, still have my gallbladder. The diarrhea started around the time I removed all significant sources of Vitamin A from my diet and has been happening on and off for the past 10 months. It was much more sporadic at the beginning of this time period and has become progressively more consistent, although not necessarily worse...just that it seems to happen around the same time every day now instead of being very unpredictable early on. One complicating factor in understanding that trend, though, is the amount and type of magnesium that I've been supplementing...it's definitely contributed to some of the diarrhea, but it's a secondary contributor.
I tried psyllium husk for about a week at small doses (1/16 tsp doses a few times a day were worsening my nightly GI symptoms enough that I did not want to risk taking more). I took tablespoons of acacia fiber every day for almost a decade thinking it was helping my IBS, but in retrospect I think it was just fueling SIBO. Not saying that fiber is going to lead to problems in healthy people, but my own history suggests it's more likely to harm than hurt when you've got GI problems that are related to motility and dysbiosis.
The dose makes the poison. 100 grams is quite a bit and causes intense flushing of overgrowths, while feeding the good stuff. I did have a variety of fibers, including one identical to that found in mothers milk. Also banana flour and baobab fruit powder.
Since when does milk have fiber in it?
Quote from BeefWizard on May 17, 2021, 4:04 pmSince when does milk have fiber in it?
galacto-oligosaccharides, also abbreviated as "GOS" is a type of fiber found in mothers milk, also in cow milk. A factory nearby refines it for the infant formula market. Otherwise it is quite hard to get the only other factory I know of is in Holland.
It's a little misleading, if not wholly incorrect, to call oligosaccharides "fiber", especially when they are produced by an animal. GOS is a fermentable carbohydrate. Fiber is a structural part of a plant that is indigestible by humans.
I'm not sure how you reckon fiber simultaneously feeds beneficial bacteria while "flushing overgrowths". I don't think there's any evidence showing you can physically push dysbiotic bacteria out of the intestines with a ton of fiber. Also, the overgrowth often appears to be beneficial/commensal bacteria, but it's in the wrong location (the small intestine) due to motility problems. Fiber is definitely not good for motility problems...it either slows motility, encouraging fermentation, or aggravates the intestinal lining, which could lead to constipation and/or diarrhea.
Our digestive tract is made to absorb fat, amino acids, and simple carbohydrates in the small intestine. If that happens as it should, there's not a lot left to feed bacteria in the ileum or the colon. We're not herbivores after all, we have a tiny cecum and a short colon that is not built to fuel the body with SCFAs from bacteria.
The bacteria in the gut do other things, especially regulating hormones. We do better when they are fed. A bunch of us tried high fiber based on the blogs of Richard Nikoley (free the animal) and Tim Steele (vegetablepharm) Wilbur cured himself of IBS, diabetes, and pollen allergies on 120 grams of fiber per day. I've gone high fiber for several months in a row and experienced dramatic things that are consistent with the benefits Grant got from detoxing Vitamin A. I think there is something there; I believe fiber or something in Wilburs smoothie mix can help detox vitamin A and it would be nice to get to the bottom of it.
When you have the right dosage, fiber doesn't hurt motility, it puts it where it should be. It doesn't aggravate the intestinal lining, it protects it. As for the constipation and diarrhea, I did say that you have to give it a week for your body to balance itself. Once you get through that, you'll be glad you did. The improvements in energy and cold tolerance were quick (within 2 weeks) and dramatic. Have you ever had a woman stick her nose in your armpit and ask what you are wearing, because you smell good? After 2 months of high fiber, that happened to me.
I think all of us here are looking for a faster way to detox vitamin A and recover from the damage it has done. High fiber, using the broader definition that includes resistant starches, may be an answer. Daily sauna time may be another, but that is something I don't have direct experience with, just an anecdote from a friend who lost 80 pounds in 6 months by doing a sauna for several hours a day one winter.
You said you don't see how eating fiber can feed beneficial bacteria while simultaneously flushing overgrowths. The principle is simple. Everyone who makes sourdough bread keeps their own sourdough starter. The process there is the same. You keep "flushing" the majority of the starter when you bake a loaf of bread, and putting new food (flour) into the starter, and over time (a week) you go from random bacteria that smell funky, to a strong, useful sourdough culture. Works really reliably. Works in our gut too, not just for making sourdough.