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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
Here is the post by Dr Ron on cod liver oil, before he died.
https://www.drrons.com/product-blog/Too-Much-of-a-NOT-so-Good-Thing
Quote from Retinoicon on September 10, 2024, 3:47 amHere is the post by Dr Ron on cod liver oil, before he died.
https://www.drrons.com/product-blog/Too-Much-of-a-NOT-so-Good-Thing
https://www.davidgumpert.com/those-ticking-time-bombs-going-off-are-wapf-people-dying-too-young
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/fermented-cod-liver-oil-butter-oil-green-pastures/
:'(
When I re-read those articles, I really was sobered by the fact that the article writers and many of those commenters arguing about cod liver oil...rancidity etc... Probably still haven't realized the possibility of VA overload.
And I also wonder about parasites. As "back to the lander-ers" WAPF'ers such as myself might need to consider them. My recent thread on them shows you aren't going to get much support from MD's when it comes to them.
I remember being on one WAPF list in which a woman had been giving her child raw foods, including raw meats. And the child ended up with worms. There is a reason people de-wormed their families yearly in the olden days.
So, some of the commenters might be right--maybe these deaths were not completely down to cod liver oil. But cod liver oil sure didn't help. I don't regret going back to the land or drinking raw milk. I regret cod liver oil.
Thanks for sharing the link to the David Gompert article about how WAPFers were dying early. I wonder if this trend has continued since the article?
I also wonder how many years we have lost for our past vitamin A indulgences. 🙁
Can the liver detox and intox at the same time?
Does detoxing too fast for the colon to get it out cause worsening symptoms?
Does intoxing provide short term relief from detoxing pain?
Does intoxing cause more pain longer term?
Does detoxing too fast increase reabsorption of bile and the retinoids carried in the bile?
Do other toxins reduce the liver's ability to process and detox retinoids?
Are these processes harder to notice for the mildly toxic low vA person than for the acutely symptomatic obviously retinol poisoned folk?
These are all great questions, joe2. You might be being rhetorical but I will take my whack at them from my perspective here on the slow-boat. First of all, I think the answers to the questions below vary for every single person. These are MY thoughts on what I've experienced, and I'm very sure that I did have hypervitamosis A (my diet was ridiculously high) I'm 61 years of age and been on the slow boat 5.5 years.
Can the liver detox and intox at the same time? My guess is that the liver probably does get busy with digestion and puts detox on a back burner.... I think that is why we need to: Eat. Stop. Eat. Stop. This is my intuition. I don't feel as well when I attend the sort of holiday in which you just eat-eat-eat for whole days or multiple days. Ew. Sure-fire way to feel like crap. I believe that the liver is not really made to store toxins and it will take any opportunity it can to detox between digestive times.
Does detoxing too fast for the colon to get it out cause worsening symptoms? It seems to me that when that happens I get the kind of watery runs that Wavy talks about. When those runs happen now, they don't burn like they used to. To me, occasional runs is handleable.
Does intoxing provide short term relief from detoxing pain? yes, a non-VA example is: wake up with a hangover and have a Bloody Mary. I remember Ourania talking about how a little bit of alcohol could help with a VA detox headache. They use the same pathways.
I can see how this effect MIGHT be why when I FAST I feel very, very crappy. My answer to this is NOT to FAST. (lol)
Does intoxing cause more pain longer term? I think it is experimental to live without VA and that no human has ever really done it. I don't like to experiment with my body. So, I don't worry about low levels of intoxing. Of course, high levels of intoxing is just dumb. IMO
Does detoxing too fast increase reabsorption of bile and the retinoids carried in the bile? unknown to me
Do other toxins reduce the liver's ability to process and detox retinoids? YES all toxins matter. A person who wants to detox from VA should be living the cleanest lifestyle they can afford to live. Dropping my daily drink of alcohol was as important to me as cutting back on VA. I suspected it early on, but it took me years to actually do it, because of my tiny little addiction.
Are these processes harder to notice for the mildly toxic low vA person than for the acutely symptomatic obviously retinol poisoned folk? For one thing, I think men are less apt to notice these things than women because women have more inwardly turned nerves (for pregnancy) and men are built to ignore inner things so that they can go on fighting battles. I also think young people will detox faster/easier than older people. An exception to this is that hormones do make things harder.
I think there are 3 situations: status quo, damage and acute-toxicity.
Some people might have higher total amounts of VA stored around their body and some people might have lower amounts. It seems to me, however, that the body likes to live in "status quo". I think this might be why some people get obese. Storing VA in fat might be the smart thing to do to keep the status quo. Some people aren't apt to put on weight and they may actually suffer more than their chubby friends. Some people might be very good at storing VA in fat, while others aren't.
Let's say for some reason your body decides it needs to fight an infection in the pancreas. (I know not everyone believes what follows). If you have a ton of VA in storage, maybe your body sends a huge flood of it. Now your pancreas suffers from the onslaught, but the infection is conquered. However, friendly fire killed off the cells that make insulin. Now you are out of status-quo-land. This isn't "acute toxicity" this is damage. This person might benefit from clearing their their detox pathways in order for the pancreas to clear the VA around the pancreas properly. And the pancreas may fix up slowly. As long as we are on this side of the dirt there is always hope.
Now here is what *I* think of as "acute toxicity". Back before Grant's idea I used to reach an acute level of toxicity some days. My body would decide "you've been poisoned". When that trigger happened, everything had to go, from every orifice. Intense gut pain and nausea. Shivering, panting, running nose and a frustrating blend of prostration and restlessness. The next day I would feel as though I was hit by a truck. Each of these attacks was exactly the same. Like a 3-hour intense flu.
Between acute attacks my gut and body went back to status quo (with chronic low-level inflammatory complaints like rosacea). During an acute attack, sipping water, fresh air and movement helped and not much else. To me, these attacks protected me since I don't seem to be a person who puts on fat in which to store VA.
The acute attacks got farther apart and stopped about at about 1.5 years on the slow boat. Would I have had less acute attacks during that time if I wasn't on the slow boat? Unknown, since maybe heavy detox was part of the problem then. Dropping alcohol would DEFINITELY have helped, I'm sure of that.
So, again, three situations: 1. chronic inflammatory status quo, 2. damage and 3. acute poisoning.
I worry that the over-the-counter meds that everyday-people take (like anti-nausea pills) keep people from experiencing the full drama that is an acute-poisoning reaction, and perhaps those horrible nights are why I'm still alive.
Quote from lil chick on September 12, 2024, 5:28 amThese are all great questions, joe2. You might be being rhetorical but I will take my whack at them from my perspective here on the slow-boat. First of all, I think the answers to the questions below vary for every single person. These are MY thoughts on what I've experienced, and I'm very sure that I did have hypervitamosis A (my diet was ridiculously high) I'm 61 years of age and been on the slow boat 5.5 years.
Can the liver detox and intox at the same time? My guess is that the liver probably does get busy with digestion and puts detox on a back burner.... I think that is why we need to: Eat. Stop. Eat. Stop. This is my intuition. I don't feel as well when I attend the sort of holiday in which you just eat-eat-eat for whole days or multiple days. Ew. Sure-fire way to feel like crap. I believe that the liver is not really made to store toxins and it will take any opportunity it can to detox between digestive times.
Does detoxing too fast for the colon to get it out cause worsening symptoms? It seems to me that when that happens I get the kind of watery runs that Wavy talks about. When those runs happen now, they don't burn like they used to. To me, occasional runs is handleable.
Does intoxing provide short term relief from detoxing pain? yes, a non-VA example is: wake up with a hangover and have a Bloody Mary. I remember Ourania talking about how a little bit of alcohol could help with a VA detox headache. They use the same pathways.
I can see how this effect MIGHT be why when I FAST I feel very, very crappy. My answer to this is NOT to FAST. (lol)
Does intoxing cause more pain longer term? I think it is experimental to live without VA and that no human has ever really done it. I don't like to experiment with my body. So, I don't worry about low levels of intoxing. Of course, high levels of intoxing is just dumb. IMO
Does detoxing too fast increase reabsorption of bile and the retinoids carried in the bile? unknown to me
Do other toxins reduce the liver's ability to process and detox retinoids? YES all toxins matter. A person who wants to detox from VA should be living the cleanest lifestyle they can afford to live. Dropping my daily drink of alcohol was as important to me as cutting back on VA. I suspected it early on, but it took me years to actually do it, because of my tiny little addiction.
Are these processes harder to notice for the mildly toxic low vA person than for the acutely symptomatic obviously retinol poisoned folk? For one thing, I think men are less apt to notice these things than women because women have more inwardly turned nerves (for pregnancy) and men are built to ignore inner things so that they can go on fighting battles. I also think young people will detox faster/easier than older people. An exception to this is that hormones do make things harder.
I think there are 3 situations: status quo, damage and acute-toxicity.
Some people might have higher total amounts of VA stored around their body and some people might have lower amounts. It seems to me, however, that the body likes to live in "status quo". I think this might be why some people get obese. Storing VA in fat might be the smart thing to do to keep the status quo. Some people aren't apt to put on weight and they may actually suffer more than their chubby friends. Some people might be very good at storing VA in fat, while others aren't.
Let's say for some reason your body decides it needs to fight an infection in the pancreas. (I know not everyone believes what follows). If you have a ton of VA in storage, maybe your body sends a huge flood of it. Now your pancreas suffers from the onslaught, but the infection is conquered. However, friendly fire killed off the cells that make insulin. Now you are out of status-quo-land. This isn't "acute toxicity" this is damage. This person might benefit from clearing their their detox pathways in order for the pancreas to clear the VA around the pancreas properly. And the pancreas may fix up slowly. As long as we are on this side of the dirt there is always hope.
Now here is what *I* think of as "acute toxicity". Back before Grant's idea I used to reach an acute level of toxicity some days. My body would decide "you've been poisoned". When that trigger happened, everything had to go, from every orifice. Intense gut pain and nausea. Shivering, panting, running nose and a frustrating blend of prostration and restlessness. The next day I would feel as though I was hit by a truck. Each of these attacks was exactly the same. Like a 3-hour intense flu.
Between acute attacks my gut and body went back to status quo (with chronic low-level inflammatory complaints like rosacea). During an acute attack, sipping water, fresh air and movement helped and not much else. To me, these attacks protected me since I don't seem to be a person who puts on fat in which to store VA.
The acute attacks got farther apart and stopped about at about 1.5 years on the slow boat. Would I have had less acute attacks during that time if I wasn't on the slow boat? Unknown, since maybe heavy detox was part of the problem then. Dropping alcohol would DEFINITELY have helped, I'm sure of that.
So, again, three situations: 1. chronic inflammatory status quo, 2. damage and 3. acute poisoning.
I worry that the over-the-counter meds that everyday-people take (like anti-nausea pills) keep people from experiencing the full drama that is an acute-poisoning reaction, and perhaps those horrible nights are why I'm still alive.
Wow.
Absotively not rhetorical questions. Nice answer.
I was thinking longer term on liver's detoxing abililties, but yeh, for sure hour to hour minute to minute for sure. Not just the liver but the entire body - digestive and excretory organs included. Herbivores eat continuously all day. They rarely eat protein and fat. I felt it in my pancreatitis first when constant eating. Left rib close to sternum pain. Ignore it at one's own risk.
In longer term perspective consider drinking from a drunk's perspective. Best way to cure hangover is hair of the dog. Really the best way is to get up, suffer through and go run. Breath gets aldehydes out fastest. The drunk's method is to have another drink. Hangover is gone instantly. Sure it brings back drunk feeling a little bit. But liver stops detoxing. Stops kicking out aldehydes into blood stream. Fairly confident that happens with all toxins. Probably long and short term. Hence eating eggs, carrots, even liver gets short term relief from detox re-poisoning symptoms AS LONG AS there is still room for liver to intox and store the new supply of toxins. When that room is exceeded, look out. In my case retinoic acid unbound to RBP came ripping out and wrecked everything en route. Screaming sacroiliitis was not my first symptom, but it was my worst.
Yeh. I had watery runs my first week learning LYL. I was familiar with that from a decade of relying on MCT oil as laxative doing keto. Then I had loose messy stool for months. Theory ran and runs
no poop = zero bile passed
slow difficult dry hard poop = tiny bit bile passed most reabsorbed
hard daily poop = bit more bile passed
solid easy poop = more bile passed
soft sticky stinky messy poop = lots of bile passed
diarrhea = lots and lost bile passed long term maybe problematic
watery diarrhea = probably too much or else no bile passed short and long term problematic
Either way it is good to get it out with minimal reabsorbed bile and minimal if any tissue injury.
Ah yeh, you and Ourania knew about hair of the dog. And yeh, I was 12 years intermittent fasting on keto. The fasting while working long physical hours stopped all bile dumps. Also I occasionally drank fat tea to keep ketosis going. Hot water, butter, whipping cream, salt, tallow - any source of fat from cow with water and salt. For sure that kept keto going and retinoids flowing to liver.
Yes. I was flat out dumb intoxing all those years. Ignorant of the topic entirely. I was WAPF-ing hard. My answer was always to WAPF harder. Except fermented cod liver oil. I threw that bottle out after a few tablespoons. Rancid does not do that stuff justice. I think Grant is the closest anyone has come to living without retinoids. I kind of like the idea of replicating his test and then some. I am not so dumb as to eat white rice and some lab form or retinol free protein powder.
Unknown to all of us on detoxing too fast on increasing reabsorption of bile and retinoids enclosed. Kind of figures though. Especially in the cases we have seen where someone is getting torn up while not taking any obvious retinoids in and not productively getting them out. Grant wrote about reabsorbing the retinoic acid in his eczema if he did not remove what came out through his skin in one of the books. Makes sense when one considers how skin makes vitamin D with sun exposure, excretes it and then reabsorbs it over the following 2 to 24 hours (if not washed off).
ATM. Hilarious. Yes All Toxins Matter. Do not dare call me a TOXIST. Crazy how well buffered nicotinic acid and now John David Haskins have helped make all my little addictions flat out boring and now much littler.
Ok fine. Women are more sensitive (please say that last word slightly lisping). I am a sensitive new age guy old but new. Yeh. Plus women have it harder all around. Recovery takes longer. Hormones rip more. Everything. Guys are probably more active too. In hundreds of cases on LYL, younger folk recover much much faster than oldies.
Status quo types make sense. They are the hardest to convince that they can do and feel much better and that it is simple if not always easy. Misery can be a great incentive and potent teacher. Mild misery much less so. Part of the Frog Soup Paradigm. Slowly boiling live frogs instead of quick boiling theoretically gets more frogs to stay in the soup. Also brings to mind a wise person's idiom: The body will always choose the slow death over the quick death.
Not sure on that pancreatic model that portrays the liver as the body's friendly oncologist sending chemo where it likes.
The heavy detox episodes bring to mind acute re-poisoning as poison on the way in and poison on the way out. Bile dumps all the way down. Am all about mild easily excreted bile dumps. Those were emergency level bile dump excretions. Guessing that is all that all flu is.
Interesting take on pharma poisons masked as medicines. As bad as that effect is, it is still a side effect compared to the actual poisoning every pharma med gives us. Family member got slammed and forcibly quarantined with the dreaded pandemic disease in 2021. Was locked in a dorm room with other sick folk. They were given half rations for days along with all the advil, tylenol and aspirin they wanted. And zero salt.
Second frantic phone call, explained all this to them. Slammed them to stop taking any more advil or anything. Find some salt some way, make salt water and rinse that horrific dry cough away. Find a way to get sleep that does not get interrupted by dry cough. Realize that the NSAIDs only shut down the liver briefly while putting more poison in the liver and make it worse at the end of following 6 hours. And they decrease pain tolerance. Yell at them to quit making it worse.
Called back next day, said we were right. Still felt like crap but at least was way beyond worst of crisis. Realized it was 90% self induced and made worse by government locking them together and restricting access to everything but pharma.
Those horrible experiences are why we are all still alive. We do not always learn fast. We definitely do learn when pain reinforces. Ate my last piece of cow liver 12/15/2022. That was an experiment after I stopped eating it 11/22/2022 - the day when I woke up screaming with isotretinoin induced sacroiliitis. Maybe my learning curve was steeper and faster than most. It was nowhere near as fast as I wanted it to be.
Glad you are alive and learning.
So many ideas ^^ for conversations here in this post, I'm going to spread them out to other posts so as to not overwhelm this thread
I don't know if there is a thread re: "the dumpster-fire that is modern medicine" (your example of the covid quarantine) . Maybe we are here to talk about just one aspect of it (VA). I wish I knew what to do about it. We have an oldie in a nursing home and they go around giving shots to everyone all the time (workers and patients alike) and yet they have covid come through every season. Has there every been a less-successful campaign against a germ? Why do people still get the shot? Hope springs eternal?
Covid is a myth. Viruses are a myth: HOW THEY FIND 'VIRUSES' IN 1 MINUTE
https://odysee.com/@Truthz4U:5/How-They-Find-Viruses-In-1-Minute:1
https://www.bitchute.com/video/KOAKbTRlP6nJ/
OP returning to say that I still appear to have bile acid malabsorption after being on an extremely low Vitamin A diet for 4.5 years now, albeit much less severe at this point. The profuse burning watery diarrhea that started when I removed Vitamin A from my diet is now essentially entirely gone, but I continue to get loose stools occasionally, mucus in stool, and gas in the middle of the night every single night and associated intestinal discomfort that routinely disturbs my sleep. I think I've deduced that the gas is a result of bacteria deconjugating bile salts and metabolizing the glycine and taurine conjugates with gas as a byproduct.
If I supplement even tiny amounts of taurine or eat things that have slightly higher levels of taurine than typical muscle meat from beef (such as heart), I get terrible hydrogen sulfide gas (taurine contains sulfur, which sulfur reducing bacteria feed on). However, it's unclear to me whether this taurine is bound to bile acids or Vitamin A. Taurine is known to bind to Vitamin A, but I think the evidence comes from its function in the eye, so I'm not sure how much this may happen in the liver and if it's a primary mechanism of eliminating Vitamin A from the body when taurine is available. It seems odd that even a tiny addition of dietary taurine would result in a sudden increase in taurine-bound bile acids for me, so I'm leaning in the direction of it binding to Vitamin A in the liver and being ejected in the bile. Maybe this is the mechanism by which taurine has been found to somewhat mitigate Vitamin A toxicity in animal studies? It appears there is also potential for glycine to bind to Vitamin A, as it does when conjugated to xenobiotics and other waste products similar to glucuronidation, so I continue to wonder if glycine-bound Vitamin A is also contributing to my GI symptoms.
Fiber and binders tend to make things worse one way or another. Fiber/binders seems to somewhat bind the bile acids and slightly reduce the gas from bacterial action on them, but also seem to slow the movement of the bile acids through the colon, and the lack of bacterial action seems to maintain the highly caustic nature of the primary (unmodified) bile acids, which causes a lot of discomfort along with diarrhea. It seems my choices are: more gas and less caustic diarrhea, or less gas and more caustic diarrhea. I do wonder if there is a point at which a massive amount of fiber would completely envelope the bile acids and prevent GI symptoms, but I haven't been able to fully test this because I get so much discomfort when ramping up fiber intake that I can't bring myself to keep doing it.
Decreasing fat intake and increasing carb intake (primarily via white sushi rice, and secondarily through dextrose) does not clearly resolve the gas or diarrhea issues, but in general it does seem to help a little. However, I've also had nights with minimal symptoms on a high-fat carnivore diet, so high-fat does not seem to guarantee worse symptoms.
I was diagnosed with IBS-D my first year of college when I was 18. I do not remember a clear start to the IBS and I do not recall having any illnesses that were close in timing to the onset of IBS symptoms. Looking back now, I'm almost fully convinced I've had bile malabsorption this entire time despite the symptoms and severity changing so much with diet and different anti-diarrheal medications. If it has always been bile acid malabsorption, then what started it all, and why did it change so dramatically when going from a high Vitamin A diet to a no Vitamin A diet?
I didn't have a high Vitamin A diet as a kid, but I did eat a ton of processed food with sugar, sugar, sugar. Sugary cereals all the time, sugary snack bars, cookies, desserts, candy, fruit. Lots of artificial dyes probably. And seed oils were certainly in a lot of those processed foods. I did eat my fair share of dairy (I think it was unfortified), but not excessive amounts. Did all that fructose I ate mess up my liver and finally catch up to me when I turned 18?
I'm still hoping that these issues are related to Vitamin A toxicity and fructose and will eventually resolve on a low Vitamin A and low fructose diet.