Quote from Janelle525 on August 16, 2024, 7:06 am

@ggenereux2014

I think the bean protocol is seeing higher success rates than the low vitamin A. I think you and Karen Hurd would get along really well! She explains why in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zSdL4WHy7A

This is talking about histamine reactions, but it's pertinent I think also for any toxicity in the body. She is speaking to Unique who healed her Crohn's disease eating beans all day. 

"it takes a while you can't get over it in a day because you know when we say eat beans and first of all people say the beans are too high in histamine if you really do have a response to them then do this do the psyllium husk, it has no histamine and so you can do that but we say eat your beans three times a day that's excellent but you recycle your bile depending on the motility of the person 20 to 72 times a day so you eat beans three times a day good girl excellent well done well you carried it three out of 20 times so the other 17 times you recycled it all and you say well I'll eat beans you know six times a day well that's good that's six out of 20 it's better than three out of 20 but what if you're one of the ones that recycle it 72 times a day woo we got a lot of eating of beans to go. 

U: I think I healed so quickly because your directive was if you're awake eat beans and I was so sick that I was only passing out for two hours a night so I was eating beans 20 sometimes 22 hours a day and I think like my histamine got under control really quick because I was doing that for a you know eight months nine months where I was just oh I'm awake I would joke with my husband I felt like a ghost walking the house rattling the bowl with my beans you know I would just sit there eating my beans and people are like were you insane I'm like yeah I was. 

K: but that is what healed you because you carried out the vast majority of your bile yeah whether that percentage you carried out 70% of it or you carried out 80% or 50% but it's a whole lot better than only carrying out 10%. 

U: or three times a day or even six times a day if you really have a major allergy scenario going on you could be doing it you know all waking hours and it would probably like how long would it let's just say a person woke up and they were doing soluble fiber from the moment they woke up till the time they went to bed how long obviously how long is a piece of string each person's different but roughly let's say a person did that I did it for you know six nine months or whatever I was doing it for because I had so by the time I got to you I had so many issues from being in chronic inflammation and illness for three years before I met you and it took another two years to go into total remission with the hormones and the gut right in in total so it was a 5 year journey and the histamines were off the charts I would get heat rashes, hair was falling out part of my issue with sleep was histamine because I was just jacked all the time um you know so I look at my case and I'm like oh I can eat anything now I don't have food allergies anymore it's more choice that I don't take in Dairy it's more choice that I don't eat certain things right but so many people can't get near them without having all sorts of skin rashes and stuff like that what would you say to somebody like give it six months of just really staying dedicated or? 

K: yes six months it could happen a lot sooner though too I mean you could see a difference month it depends on how many recycling allergens you have how many years has this has been going on and so it is different it's just like you said how long is a piece of string you know it depends upon the person but if people are you know people will talk to me and they'll say I'm having an allergic reaction the first thing I'll say is every 20 minutes eat a tablespoon or two of beans every 20 minutes, every 20 minutes because then you're going to carry out 100% of your bile and all of that cause whatever is causing the allergic reaction whether it's an antibiotic because antibiotics can cause an allergic reaction or if it's the corn tasseling in the field then we're going to be carrying that out at 100%"

So we need to be carrying out toxins every 20 minutes with soluble fiber. That's why it's taking ppl yrs to see results on low vitamin A, they aren't carrying out the toxicity fast enough. I know I'm not as I still have bad pollen allergies and side effects from what it seems like retinoic acid. Three times a day of beans just isn't going to cut it. 

Quote from Hermes on August 16, 2024, 1:15 pm

This is such a great and honest answer from Grant. It speaks to his character. Things are obviously more nuanced than just eating rice, red meat and beans. And so we continue to look for answers on how to make this work. Grant clearly shows how less vitamin A in the body improves function. In all likelihood, vitamin A doesn't deserve to be called a vitamin; it's more likely a toxin. It will be interesting to see if I can actually lower my serum vitamin A levels on eggs over the years. That still needs to reported.

Quote from Deleted user on August 16, 2024, 3:34 pm

Quote from ggenereux on August 16, 2024, 6:44 am

Hi @joe, @jessica2,

Sorry for the late responses, I don’t have time these days to follow what’s going on here on the forum.

Joe.

 Jessica2 is not a troll, and please don’t accuse her of that. She has been here a long time and has contributed a lot to the discussion.

She has her views, and as I’ve stated, all views are welcome. Personal attacks are not. We need allies here, not enemies. IMO almost nothing in science is ever solved by just debating it, rather we need to rely on experimental evidence.

I understand Jessica’s position, and partially agree with it too.

RE:

“I understand many people here think VA is an issue. I thought it was mine at one point too. But a point I've repeatedly said is that if vitamin A is a poison across the board to all life forms we all should across the board get better when we cut its forms out of our diet.”

Yes, the success rate here is very low. For people making a full recovery from a chronic disease condition, it might be in the low single digits. From past surveys we saw a significantly higher percentage of people at least seeing an improvement in their health.

When I first started on this project I too expected to see that: “we all should across the board get better when we cut its forms out of our diet.”

But, the reality is that is not at all the case, and the process has turned out to be more complicated.

Moreover, there are many people who actually experience worse health. But, we also now know why that is happening. It’s because so many people have reported that their vA serum levels actually go up after starting a vA elimination diet. I think this is more strong evidence to indicate the significant toxicity of vA esters, something that Mawson has stated in many of his papers.

However, the fact that too few people are seeing results does not at all prove that the theory of vA toxicity is wrong. Rather it is just proving that recovering from it is extremely slow and problematic. And, yes, it is hugely disappointing, and clearly indicates that we have a long way to go in somehow making the process more reliable. Relying on diet alone is clearly not cutting it.

But, we are also seeing success stories. I’ve been getting quite a few of them directly via email, and mostly from people who are not here on this forum. Also, apparently there are quite a few of them showing up on the Ray Peat forum as well. So, the real-world results to date are mixed, and kind of all over the map.

There are also some interesting patterns showing up as well. One is that a lot of people are reporting huge improvements, if not fully recovering, from long-term chronic anxiety and depression. A second observation is that it looks like younger men are seeing improvements faster and more often than do women.

On one hand, I’d like to say that if people can stick to it long enough they’ll eventually see results. On the other hand no one wants to wait 5-10 years either.

However, for all of our setbacks and low success rates there are indeed people not only recovering from long term disease, I do dare say that they are also being cured from their chronic diseases. Simply because they’ve removed the root cause.

However, our low success rate is far higher than any pharmaceutical drug has ever been.

Something rather amazing to consider is that in the last 100 year history of the pharmaceutical industry they’ve never produced a single drug that actually outright, or even over the long-term, actually cures a non-infectious disease.  That’s correct, after 100+ years, and trillions of dollars in cumulative revenue, and with about 20,000 drug products on the market, their success rate in curing a disease is a flat 0.0%.

So, by comparison, I think we are doing OK.  I’m confident that with more time we’ll be seeing a significant improvement in the success rate.

 

No worries on the late responses.  Given the time invested and the returns on that investment, I am surprised to see you here at all. 

It seems that in order for people here to be convinced you are not some opportunist sucking at the anti vitamin A cartel trillions that you must give up an insane portion of your time and wealth in the name of a "movement." 

I have worked in not-for-profits where executives and other employees made a very good living while also working toward an admirable goal.  Not sure how that model could work here. 

Compare and contrast the business models of plasma centers vs blood centers.  For profit companies like Octapharma pay their plasma "donors" for the product because they sell plasma for research and manufacturing.  Their product does not go to human recipients.   Blood centers on the other hand can not pay blood donors since their products go to human recipients.  They can and do however charge plenty to the hospitals who buy the blood products.  While they are NFP's they are also not designed and run to lose money.   Phlebotomists and managers at both blood centers and plasma centers make a decent enough living most of the time.

My apologies for calling anyone anything.  Troll or otherwise.  It is always a mistake to use ad hominem tactics.

Calling out what appears to be trolling behavior is a different idea entirely.

Perhaps I do not understand Jessica's position.  What exactly of her position do you agree with? 

To date, I think I have consistently called out her careful avoidance of clearly stated, documented and for my mind proven facts in your blog posts and books.  Instead she has focused on speculations of where your theories are wrong based on her easy acceptance of standard Rockefeller financed (and repeatedly proven fraudulent) science.

To be sure, I do value what she has written as well as what she looks at.  I would not have found Meredith Arthur without her.   Meredith does pose some intriguing possibilities.  There is a pattern though with ideas from Andrew, Meredith and Jessica here and elsewhere.  It is speculative, as all ideas necessarily are at the start of their being tested.  It is also dismissive of ideas that are being tested for much longer time frames.  

I find it ironic and typical in conversations both here and on Garrett's blog when someone with 6 months experience on a diet tells me I am wrong about that diet.  Will is one of my favorite mentors and a case in point.  One of my first conversations with him he concluded I knew not enough about #toxicbiletheory and nutrition / diet in general.  He told me to reread my #toxicbiletheory.  He was right.   I did.  Unfortunately, he started in on what would happen if I did not eat breakfast the next day.  He had no clue that I had finished 12 years of keto the month before where I intermittent fasted 20 hours a day.  During that time, as a 50 plus year old my performance in a physical job was stellar.

So I have little patience for people who have tested an idea for a few months and then concluded that it does not work.  They routinely from that moment on set to speculating why the people who tested the idea for years with amazing success could not possibly have succeeded for the reasons believed.  Shawn Baker is a case in point.  I disagree with him routinely.  No matter what I respect what he has done and is doing.  When I argue with him I can only warn him of the crash that is coming, describe it in detail and tell him to find Grant and Garrett when it comes.  

All these diet ideas have their successes and failures.   They all have their merits.  They all have their downside risks.  And every single one of them has a large group of people who tried awhile and gave up.  I can get most beginners through their problems in most diets.  I had mentors who helped me in my beginnings.  It is unlikely to have had the physical success I had in 12 years of keto, 15 years of Zone or 14 years of high calorie lacto/ovo vegetarian diets without the guidance mentors gave me in my beginnings.  Each one of those diets have their short term difficulties.  Each one has value that makes getting over that short term hump worthwhile.  Each one has their longterm downside risks.  Perhaps it is wild speculation on my part, but I imagine a similar scenario in low vitamin A diet.  Having someone out there going hard 10 years into a test is the only reassurance I can ask. 

I think your one single failure in the science you are applying here Grant is that you presume that everyone should improve on a low retinol diet.  This view fails to account for all the nuances involved in withdrawing from an incredibly addictive toxin.

Failing to EXPECT many people to get worse during their withdrawal from vitamin A is a mistake.  As stated before I think there is a reason people have noticed that your most successful demographic is old guys.  I think the reason is obvious.  These are all the most acute cases of chronic poisoning in the entire toxic society.  This demographic has a gun to our head that compels us to sort out what works, what does not and what gets in the way of reaching what works.

Alcoholics Anonymous is a case in point.  Their failure rate is no better nor worse than that of an individual alcoholic giving up alcohol on his own with zero support and zero study.  Those folk put a whole lot of time, effort and study to break that little habit to get such ridiculously bad results.  Ironically, Bill Wilson for a brief time got much higher and consistent success rates when he worked with Abram Hoffer experimenting with nicotinic acid.  By then unfortunately, Rockefeller funds had infiltrated Alcoholics Anonymous and they forced Wilson out under threat of practicing medicine without proper license.  There is a lesson to be learned here.

There is a lot more to quitting and detoxing an addictive poison than just stopping intake.  What you have done Grant is as impressive as a kid like Dave Scott did when he dominated the first triathalons.  It is why they named him the IronMan.   His high caloric diet and amazing performance is why I ate like that for 14 years.  He studied and came up with that and other ideas on his own.  When I crashed with the inevitable problems inherent in that diet long term, my then and now doc pointed out to me that Dave Scott retired on that diet eating 20k to 30k calories daily.  He then came out of retirement eating the Zone diet at 1500 to 2500 calories daily.  And once again dominated.   Again, that was reason enough for me to try a new diet, recover from my crash and go on to improve again.

The reason what you have done is impressive is that you studied independently as Scott did and tested your own theories and adjusted and tested more and improved.  The results did your talking for you.  Just like you, few people have gotten Dave Scott's results.  Believe me, many more people tried his tactics a few months and gave up.  The fact that success rates in the low vitamin A world are not higher is the single worst and least valid criticism for any idea I have seen. 

When I came here I was damaged from nose to tail keto for over a decade.  I can only guess what would have happened had I gone muscle meat only keto.  Either way, after looking over these blog posts I realized quickly that I could not get the mentorship and help I needed here.   What I did get here was a clear view of an undeniable fact.  This idea works.  Making it work is a different matter.  That is when I started reading everything Garrett and his crew published. 

As a side note, that is another point I find ironic.  While I feel bad about ad hominem attacks on anyone, I find it routine that people attack Garrett on this blog with zero constructive points and less evidence.  Mostly he is accused of being an opportunist raking in the millions of anti vitamin A money out there.  I paid zero dollars into Garrett's system my first four months arguing and studying with all those folk.  Garrett routinely replied to my questions and contradictions on public forums within hours.  And if you think I am an abrasive difficult person here on your blog, keep in mind those first 4 months with Garrett, I was in agony sleeping 3 times a day for 15 minute naps.   I am a much gentler kinder person now.

There is a huge difference between a clinician and a researcher.  During that first 4 months, I studied the researcher to see what was possible.  I argued the clinician and his crew to see what they were capable of doing.   I compelled them to make predictions and I tested those theories.  Once I started getting consistent results, I felt I owed them the respect and the dollars to pay for membership in that system.  That is why I am here giving time freely.  I value what you and others have done to help. 

The fact that you do not have the testimonials filling these posts is not because you have a low success rate with this idea.  It is because the people who post their successes elsewhere do not like posting here.  They have told me they do not post on reddit nor on here, because of the abuse they expect.  From here on, when I find folk I will ask as I did with Mikey for permission to post their story here. 

The level of cognitive dissonance has to be dealt with.  I came to this blog to learn an idea and learn who to learn with and how best to apply it.   I had similar experience when I started paleo, keto, zone and vegetarianism.   There are always layers of folk claiming the ideas do not work and their experience proves it.   Call that trolling or whatever.  Either way, it is distracting and obstructive for the people who need to get to the meat of the ideas and find guidance they need.

Please do keep doing what you are doing and writing it all down.  Please do talk more with Garrett and all the different personalities coming out of that organization.  There is a lot more to learn, test and improve with.  Arguing over whether or not vitamin A is a nutrient and advocating eating it is EXACTLY the same thing as arguing in an Alcoholic Anonymous meeting whether or not alcohol is a nutrient and whether or not to drink it.   To be sure there are cases where a good clinician will tell their client, "hey, have some alcohol."   Those cases are rare and routinely involve delirium tremens and other end stage addiction symptoms.  Only the best clinicians can handle those kinds of cases. Clinical work like that involves more than just working knowledge about the toxin.

Thank you for your time.   Please do not waste any more of it on me nor my abrasiveness.  I feel I am well within the value system here calling someone out and asking why they are posting here when all they are posting is speculative doubts that ignore obvious facts already documented and posted.  Now it is time for me to get back to earning a living.

Thank you again and goodnight.

 

Quote from Deleted user on August 16, 2024, 6:01 pm

Quote from Jessica2 on August 16, 2024, 5:06 pm

@ggenereux2014 I'll be brief;

I believe hypervitaminosis A is probably a bigger issue than most believe, and many people can experience better health consuming less of it. Especially with fortification, Back To Nature types pushing liver and cod liver oil, and general abundance of food and overeating and under exercising.

I will wait for more evidence to come in about resolving major diseases with low A and just say perhaps or perhaps not on the evidence there.

Thank you!

Please show testimonials for what you believe works.

https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/mikeys-testimonial-progress-report/

 

Quote from Deleted user on August 16, 2024, 6:03 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on August 16, 2024, 7:06 am

@ggenereux2014

I think the bean protocol is seeing higher success rates than the low vitamin A. I think you and Karen Hurd would get along really well! She explains why in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zSdL4WHy7A

This is talking about histamine reactions, but it's pertinent I think also for any toxicity in the body. She is speaking to Unique who healed her Crohn's disease eating beans all day. 

"it takes a while you can't get over it in a day because you know when we say eat beans and first of all people say the beans are too high in histamine if you really do have a response to them then do this do the psyllium husk, it has no histamine and so you can do that but we say eat your beans three times a day that's excellent but you recycle your bile depending on the motility of the person 20 to 72 times a day so you eat beans three times a day good girl excellent well done well you carried it three out of 20 times so the other 17 times you recycled it all and you say well I'll eat beans you know six times a day well that's good that's six out of 20 it's better than three out of 20 but what if you're one of the ones that recycle it 72 times a day woo we got a lot of eating of beans to go. 

U: I think I healed so quickly because your directive was if you're awake eat beans and I was so sick that I was only passing out for two hours a night so I was eating beans 20 sometimes 22 hours a day and I think like my histamine got under control really quick because I was doing that for a you know eight months nine months where I was just oh I'm awake I would joke with my husband I felt like a ghost walking the house rattling the bowl with my beans you know I would just sit there eating my beans and people are like were you insane I'm like yeah I was. 

K: but that is what healed you because you carried out the vast majority of your bile yeah whether that percentage you carried out 70% of it or you carried out 80% or 50% but it's a whole lot better than only carrying out 10%. 

U: or three times a day or even six times a day if you really have a major allergy scenario going on you could be doing it you know all waking hours and it would probably like how long would it let's just say a person woke up and they were doing soluble fiber from the moment they woke up till the time they went to bed how long obviously how long is a piece of string each person's different but roughly let's say a person did that I did it for you know six nine months or whatever I was doing it for because I had so by the time I got to you I had so many issues from being in chronic inflammation and illness for three years before I met you and it took another two years to go into total remission with the hormones and the gut right in in total so it was a 5 year journey and the histamines were off the charts I would get heat rashes, hair was falling out part of my issue with sleep was histamine because I was just jacked all the time um you know so I look at my case and I'm like oh I can eat anything now I don't have food allergies anymore it's more choice that I don't take in Dairy it's more choice that I don't eat certain things right but so many people can't get near them without having all sorts of skin rashes and stuff like that what would you say to somebody like give it six months of just really staying dedicated or? 

K: yes six months it could happen a lot sooner though too I mean you could see a difference month it depends on how many recycling allergens you have how many years has this has been going on and so it is different it's just like you said how long is a piece of string you know it depends upon the person but if people are you know people will talk to me and they'll say I'm having an allergic reaction the first thing I'll say is every 20 minutes eat a tablespoon or two of beans every 20 minutes, every 20 minutes because then you're going to carry out 100% of your bile and all of that cause whatever is causing the allergic reaction whether it's an antibiotic because antibiotics can cause an allergic reaction or if it's the corn tasseling in the field then we're going to be carrying that out at 100%"

So we need to be carrying out toxins every 20 minutes with soluble fiber. That's why it's taking ppl yrs to see results on low vitamin A, they aren't carrying out the toxicity fast enough. I know I'm not as I still have bad pollen allergies and side effects from what it seems like retinoic acid. Three times a day of beans just isn't going to cut it. 

Has Karen any clients who are still taking in vitamin A while using soluble fiber to pull out toxic bile?

Quote from Deleted user on August 16, 2024, 10:41 pm

Quote from Jessica2 on August 16, 2024, 6:17 pm

@joe you can read my own story. I just had a liver sonogram which showed no fatty liver, bloodwork showing resolved macrocytosis, weight loss of around 30 pounds and improving strength and exercise tolerance: all while eating eggs, dairy, and pork.

Nice.  good for you.  what time frame?

Quote from lil chick on August 17, 2024, 11:54 am

@joe when I read your long post to Grant a few posts above me, this is what comes to mind:

Didn't all these heroics and gurus get you into trouble in the first place?  

Why are you always looking for the next ultra-challenging idea and guru?

Maybe someday you will burn out on all this and realize you just want to be normal and think about other things.

Someone said it to me about a decade ago, and it made me angry at the time but here it is:  "I don't think eating has to be as hard as you're making it"

Quote from lil chick on August 17, 2024, 11:56 am

I think there is a place here on Grant's site for people who don't want to screech on the breaks and make a U turn.   They just want to swerve to avoid the obstacle.   And go on with their lives.

Quote from lil chick on August 17, 2024, 11:59 am

I think to go back to the beginning, didn't this thread start out as sort of an argument about criticizing other practitioners in the Lo-VA space?    Gosh,  it's a subject we want more people thinking about.    I think we are lucky for anyone who's allowing it!   haha