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Conventional beef vs grassfed beef
For those interested in farmers supplementing cows with vitamin A, here is a website from a university agriculture extension program that gives farmers some advice. It does seem like careless farmers end up giving way more vitamin A than even this website promoting supplements recommends.
https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/supplementing-vitamin-a-to-beef-cattle.html
For those interested in farmers supplementing cows with vitamin A, here is a website from a university agriculture extension program that gives farmers some advice. It does seem like careless farmers end up giving way more vitamin A than even this website promoting supplements recommends.
https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/supplementing-vitamin-a-to-beef-cattle.html
Quote from
lil chick on May 28, 2021, 4:41 am
I'm not sure it is that it's untradtitional to feed grain to ruminants.
In northern climes (obviously) there is no growing green grass for many months of the year. Here that's from November until March. (5 months) Of course, during those months sun-dried hay is fed and grain. I think that has been the norm for ? ever ? Not really a modern thing? Here and there you can find a purist who who might skip the grain, but those farmers tell me that their production (of milk, meat) is much much less. I suppose grain is energy for those zero-degree nights and blizzards. I don't know any goat farmers who don't tempt their goats to the milking stand with grain, in fact, I don't know ANY browse-only goat farmers . They all give some grain. I don't think it is obvious that feeding grain is 100% bad.
I also don't know any confinement beef places. All the beef farmers near me send their cows out onto their fields. Those are mostly in the west?
One thing about feeding grain vs corn is that in the olden days MIDDLINGS were fed to the animals (high in b vities) and the white portion of the grains was made into bread for the humans. That seems like a perfect arrangement. Corn, as we know, leads to b-vitamin DEFICIENCY which perhaps leads to the ruminants being VA TOXIC.
I'm not sure it is that it's untradtitional to feed grain to ruminants.
In northern climes (obviously) there is no growing green grass for many months of the year. Here that's from November until March. (5 months) Of course, during those months sun-dried hay is fed and grain. I think that has been the norm for ? ever ? Not really a modern thing? Here and there you can find a purist who who might skip the grain, but those farmers tell me that their production (of milk, meat) is much much less. I suppose grain is energy for those zero-degree nights and blizzards. I don't know any goat farmers who don't tempt their goats to the milking stand with grain, in fact, I don't know ANY browse-only goat farmers . They all give some grain. I don't think it is obvious that feeding grain is 100% bad.
I also don't know any confinement beef places. All the beef farmers near me send their cows out onto their fields. Those are mostly in the west?
One thing about feeding grain vs corn is that in the olden days MIDDLINGS were fed to the animals (high in b vities) and the white portion of the grains was made into bread for the humans. That seems like a perfect arrangement. Corn, as we know, leads to b-vitamin DEFICIENCY which perhaps leads to the ruminants being VA TOXIC.
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Quote from
lil chick on May 28, 2021, 4:44 am
"Wheat middlings are the product of the wheat milling process that is not flour. A good source of protein, fiber, phosphorus, and other nutrients"
I think some breweries used to feed spent grain to ruminants and that's not right. I made spent grain bread once. I smells wonderful, but is basically just fiber. Like trying to live on cardboard.
"Wheat middlings are the product of the wheat milling process that is not flour. A good source of protein, fiber, phosphorus, and other nutrients"
I think some breweries used to feed spent grain to ruminants and that's not right. I made spent grain bread once. I smells wonderful, but is basically just fiber. Like trying to live on cardboard.
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@lil-chick, you know a lot about agricultural practices. There seem to be three time periods of an animal's life where grain feeding could be used.
- As a replacement for green grass during the cold months of the year when the animal is growing, particularly in northern climates. The animal would be on a normal farm or ranch. The first stage of life in the US is often on a cow-calf operation.
- In the US, there are stockers who buy calves at six to nine months of age and use grass or other forage to put weight on them, before they are sold to a feedlot. But grain could be used here during the winter as well.
- During the last five months of the animal's life, on a feedlot. In the US, traditionally corn is used but hypothetically I could see other grains being used.
My current hypothesis is that stage #3, the feedlot, is more related to the overall retinoid content of the beef we are eating (in addition to vitamin A supplements, of course). @lil-chick, do you feedlot producers in the north would use wheat for the feedlot stage even during the summer?
@lil-chick, you know a lot about agricultural practices. There seem to be three time periods of an animal's life where grain feeding could be used.
- As a replacement for green grass during the cold months of the year when the animal is growing, particularly in northern climates. The animal would be on a normal farm or ranch. The first stage of life in the US is often on a cow-calf operation.
- In the US, there are stockers who buy calves at six to nine months of age and use grass or other forage to put weight on them, before they are sold to a feedlot. But grain could be used here during the winter as well.
- During the last five months of the animal's life, on a feedlot. In the US, traditionally corn is used but hypothetically I could see other grains being used.
My current hypothesis is that stage #3, the feedlot, is more related to the overall retinoid content of the beef we are eating (in addition to vitamin A supplements, of course). @lil-chick, do you feedlot producers in the north would use wheat for the feedlot stage even during the summer?
Quote from
lil chick on May 28, 2021, 6:07 am
I live in the outskirts of suburbia. Farms in this part of New England are so tiny compared to farms in the west. I don't know any meat farmers here that are run in the "big ag" types of ways. Farmers around here do keep young cows out on pasture and I assume they bring them in closer for the grain feeding and the sedentary last part of their growth. Some people rent their fields out to farmers (even if they themselves aren't farmers) and there are always new batches of baby cows out there.
Some slightly bigger dairies do exist here. The adult cows would get very little green, growing grass. They get hay and grain. It's hard work to use rotational grazing. And you don't want your cows over across the street when you have to milk them twice a day.
I think there are feedlots in the west as big as some of our small towns around here, LOL. Things are totally different there.
I have never seen the contents of the feed for the growers here, but I can look at a bag next time I'm at the farm store! I don't know if they feed grains to the baby cows in summer.
I live in the outskirts of suburbia. Farms in this part of New England are so tiny compared to farms in the west. I don't know any meat farmers here that are run in the "big ag" types of ways. Farmers around here do keep young cows out on pasture and I assume they bring them in closer for the grain feeding and the sedentary last part of their growth. Some people rent their fields out to farmers (even if they themselves aren't farmers) and there are always new batches of baby cows out there.
Some slightly bigger dairies do exist here. The adult cows would get very little green, growing grass. They get hay and grain. It's hard work to use rotational grazing. And you don't want your cows over across the street when you have to milk them twice a day.
I think there are feedlots in the west as big as some of our small towns around here, LOL. Things are totally different there.
I have never seen the contents of the feed for the growers here, but I can look at a bag next time I'm at the farm store! I don't know if they feed grains to the baby cows in summer.
Thanks. Without any direct evidence, I suspect these commercial New England beef cattle farmers/ranchers are cow-calf operations that sell their calves at six to nine months to stockers in the midwest, southeast and west.
I contacted a super wonderfully responsive and conscientious (and even all female owned!) regenerative ranch in Texas and the farmer is using some sort of multivitamin type supplement that includes all the fat soluble vitamins we are supposed to be avoiding: A, E, D. I hope she will send me the information on the specific supplement but the idea of finding organic/regenerative/grass-fed/whatever ranchers not supplementing with vitamin A in the United States is looking to be close to impossible.
I will look into Australia and New Zealand next.
Thanks. Without any direct evidence, I suspect these commercial New England beef cattle farmers/ranchers are cow-calf operations that sell their calves at six to nine months to stockers in the midwest, southeast and west.
I contacted a super wonderfully responsive and conscientious (and even all female owned!) regenerative ranch in Texas and the farmer is using some sort of multivitamin type supplement that includes all the fat soluble vitamins we are supposed to be avoiding: A, E, D. I hope she will send me the information on the specific supplement but the idea of finding organic/regenerative/grass-fed/whatever ranchers not supplementing with vitamin A in the United States is looking to be close to impossible.
I will look into Australia and New Zealand next.
Quote from
Sussan on May 28, 2021, 7:30 am
Interesting discussion here. Good to know that I can buy regular beef instead of the organic cause it is affordable.
Interesting discussion here. Good to know that I can buy regular beef instead of the organic cause it is affordable.
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Quote from
ggenereux on May 26, 2021, 10:58 am
Hi @fred,
I buy the bison directly from the rancher, and the animals are naturally grass pastured only with no supplemental feed.
With for the beef, I'm not sure. I just buy regular (non organic) beef and I assume it is grain finished. But, there's a difference in what feed lots use for "grain" finished. I'm my understanding of it here in Alberta the grain is mostly wheat, whereas in some USA feed lots they use corn.
This is a post from Grant a couple of days ago in this thread. Grant lives somewhere in Alberta. I actually have family nearby in Fort St John, BC and I can attest that Alberta overall is cold!
- Grant buys bison directly from a rancher and the rancher doesn't use supplemental feed. Even if the bison are eating green grass during the summer, there is no green grass in Alberta in the winter. The bison are probably eating hay for a good deal of the year. Hay has much less vitamin A than green grass, according to this article targeting beef cattle ranchers. https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/supplementing-vitamin-a-to-beef-cattle.html
- Grant buys grain fed beef that is likely produced in Alberta. In Alberta, few farmers are growing corn so the industrial beef industry finishes the cows on wheat, not corn. Wheat will have much less beta carotene than corn, according to the article linked above.
- We have no idea if Alberta farmers supplement either bison or beef cattle with vitamin A, although it is likely as everyone in the US seems to use vitamin A supplements for beef cattle.
@ggenereux2014, do you want to comment on the hypothesis that your sources of beef and bison have much less vitamin A than sources almost everyone else on this forum is eating?
Quote from
ggenereux on May 26, 2021, 10:58 am
Hi @fred,
I buy the bison directly from the rancher, and the animals are naturally grass pastured only with no supplemental feed.
With for the beef, I'm not sure. I just buy regular (non organic) beef and I assume it is grain finished. But, there's a difference in what feed lots use for "grain" finished. I'm my understanding of it here in Alberta the grain is mostly wheat, whereas in some USA feed lots they use corn.
This is a post from Grant a couple of days ago in this thread. Grant lives somewhere in Alberta. I actually have family nearby in Fort St John, BC and I can attest that Alberta overall is cold!
- Grant buys bison directly from a rancher and the rancher doesn't use supplemental feed. Even if the bison are eating green grass during the summer, there is no green grass in Alberta in the winter. The bison are probably eating hay for a good deal of the year. Hay has much less vitamin A than green grass, according to this article targeting beef cattle ranchers. https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/supplementing-vitamin-a-to-beef-cattle.html
- Grant buys grain fed beef that is likely produced in Alberta. In Alberta, few farmers are growing corn so the industrial beef industry finishes the cows on wheat, not corn. Wheat will have much less beta carotene than corn, according to the article linked above.
- We have no idea if Alberta farmers supplement either bison or beef cattle with vitamin A, although it is likely as everyone in the US seems to use vitamin A supplements for beef cattle.
@ggenereux2014, do you want to comment on the hypothesis that your sources of beef and bison have much less vitamin A than sources almost everyone else on this forum is eating?
Quote from
ggenereux on May 28, 2021, 6:42 pm
Hi @jeremy,
I don't know how my diet compares to what other people are doing.
However, yes, the primary reason I mostly consume bison over beef is to keep my vA intake as low as possible. The bison I get is very low in fat, so my thinking is that it would be extremely low in vA.
But, I also don't think people need or should strive to go this low on vA intake. It's just to prove a point, I'm not doing it for health reasons.
Hi @jeremy,
I don't know how my diet compares to what other people are doing.
However, yes, the primary reason I mostly consume bison over beef is to keep my vA intake as low as possible. The bison I get is very low in fat, so my thinking is that it would be extremely low in vA.
But, I also don't think people need or should strive to go this low on vA intake. It's just to prove a point, I'm not doing it for health reasons.
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Quote from
Jiří on May 29, 2021, 9:32 am
@jeremy beef from factory farming has white fat. Grass fed beef has yellow fat because it's full of vit A..
@jeremy beef from factory farming has white fat. Grass fed beef has yellow fat because it's full of vit A..
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