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Copper and zinc metabolism
Hi everyone.
I am really puzzled.
On one side as explained recently on another post I have witnessed people reversing their conditions (or at least so it seems) by restricting & chelating zinc. There are also papers (dont have them now because I am travelling and not at home but can share them once back) clearly showing an accumulation oppf zinc within pancreas, nerves, brain, etc and deleterious effects because of that.
On another side I take into account all you write and it also makes sense (basically if I gather your ideas from various posts, the A excess makes one's copper metabolism faulty which makes one accumulate copper within tissues while being "deficient" at the same time etc.
The last thing I want is increase human suffering and give wrong advice to anyone especially people I know and who have confidence in me that's why I ask you all the following:
- does anyone of you know for sure ("first hand") anything about copper or zinc metabolism? Have you ever done chelations/analyses within tissues (such as DMPS provocation tests etc.)? What have been the results? Have you done urine zinc tests? What are the results? Do you know anyone healing or getting worse "long term" by restricting copper or zinc ? Except Dr Wilson which I have read few years ago is there any other "up to date expert" which has experience (I mean direct experience on many people) with that kind of things? Dr Smith? What is his thought about it? Others?
@ggenereux2014 what are your thoughts on this? Have you ever analysed your copper/zinc and with what method and results? Do you even think it is important? Why or why not? Please be as detailed and concise as possible.
@jiri you have written a few times that you understand well copper/zinc because of your own suffering because of it but dont have time to explain etc. For the sake of science and fellkw human beings' pain, can you please take the time and explain with as much detail as you are able of what you know about it?
@all others: please share any direct, factual experience you or people you know have/had with the subject of copper/zinc metabolism/toxicity.
All I can honestly write is that after 10+ years of experimenting and reading etc., I have accumulated lots of analyses and experiences from lots if people and am quite sure (with solid evidence when I look at everything from "above") that the key to modern diseases lies within the "A-copper-zinc complex" and related breathing patterns (basically oxygenation of the body) and all other problems are a "derivation" of that basic (dis)equilibrium (of oxygen/co2 within blood tissues etc.) that's why I would really like to understand it as well as possible as it can relieve much much suffering.
About the A poisoning I have not much doubt nor questions but I really think we have to understand clearly what is going with copper and zinc to get the full picture in terms of metabolism/breathing and Life in general.
Thank you all in advance for time & help.
Hi @dino,
Welcome back,
I don’t have specific knowledge on zinc, other than noticing that it is a key atom in hundreds of different hormones and proteins. I don’t know what form of zinc is best, but I’m assuming that it should come from foods.
Early on I did very sporadically and occasionally (say a couple times per month) take a zinc tablet (50mg tablets). But, overall, probably less than 12 tablets per YEAR.
The reason that I was not at all consistent with it was that I worried about potential toxicity. However, when I did take zinc tablets I THINK it was helpful, but that could have just been my wishful thinking too. So, without having any way to measure where my zn levels were at, I mostly relied on getting my zinc from red meat.
A while back someone shared an interesting paper that showed that the absorption of zinc from foods is seriously reduced when gluten is included in the same meal. So, eating bread could negate the zinc benefit of red meat.
I have no insight as to the risk / harms of copper...but since copper is an electrical conductor it makes sense to be careful with it too.
Personal Anecdotal evidence , ZINC is the only supplement I that has been really helpful in Vitamin A toxicity recovery so far . Rest other I have tried , magnesium / b vitamins , folate etc didn't have any palpable benefits . Also , It's pretty sure to me that Vitamin A toxicity depletes zinc like anything .
Copper I have no idea about , I am waiting to do my ceruloplasmin test . Hopefully its in the range .
From listening to Garrett Smith my understanding is that some people are high copper/ low zinc (majority) but a significant minority are low copper/ high zinc. VA toxicity can shift the body in different ways.
Therefore it seems very possible that some people are helped by reducing zinc whereas others are helped by supplementing zinc. Bodies react to the same pressures in different ways.
For zinc/copper balance my understanding is that information can be gained from hair testing but only after bloods have been looked at so NOT as stand alone. That’s my understanding.
Very interesting about gluten & zinc. Also for me high copper in blood (maybe unbound?) is strongly associated with anxiety. If I do anything that shifts copper quickly (increased supplementation of zinc, molybdenum, vitamin C) I feel truly terrible. This has happened enough times now for it to be a very strong correlation & for me to be careful not to repeat it! (My tendency is high copper/low zinc).
If you read and watch these videos you will know my perspective on this topic. The only issues with zinc can be if somebody is taking 50 or more mg of zinc a day for months. I never ever heard anywhere from anyone that he is "zinc toxic" from the diet. On the other hand you can be easily "copper toxic" from the diet because it is not much about the amount of copper you are taking. It is about metabolism of copper. The ability of the body to make transport proteins and the ability to eliminate excess with the bile. If this doesn't work the body can't use copper properly and you will not fix this problem by eating more copper. That I know for sure... In terms of testing for this copper/ceruloplasmin in serum + hair tests are the best tools to learn what is going on. It is about doing hair, blood testing and according to results start with the diet and mineral/vitamin supplements and after couple of months retest blood and hair and monitor changes. All this is well understood by people doing hair tests who are dealing with copper toxicty/disregulation... Now I am speaking for myself and from my experience. I have no interest to convince anybody. I don't make any money from this. I am just saying what helped me. You can take it or leave it. I don't care..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TshTF6TT95Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jelc3j1HOcs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deusGYkl-gg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbAeu7qYfco
My experience:
White spots on my nails went away when I changed my diet from very little meat to heavy meat based.
I recently did an oligoscan that showed that my tissue zinc and copper level are fine.
things worth considering:
From drlWilson I learned that after giving basic mineral supplementation to patients he would see the copper level on HTMA skyrocket, this would theoretically be copper detox. During this period people experience emotional instability, weakness, emf sensibility etc. and after the body detoxed copper the bar on HTMA would drop and they would feel better.
The story of the youtuber frank tufano is interesting. He is experiencing many benefits from copper supplementation. He says that years of only red meat have made him not absorb any copper. He had issues with histamines that after copper supplementation seem to have disappeared. This might be because the enzyme to break down histamines is built with copper (I don't remember exactly the details here).
Lastly, I would like to add that the level of copper or zinc in a HTMA isn't indicative of body level of those minerals. Just like blood test to some degree. With HTMA it's interesting to see patterns and which minerals the body is detoxing.
@mattia If Frank was eating also beef liver with the meat. I doubt that he had copper deficiency. Just 100g a week is plenty of copper and he was eating probably more than that... But he had issues with high iron. Which is no surprise if you eat nothing but red meat and organs.. That is the main thing I don't like about carnivore influencers like Baker, Saladino etc.. They don't talk about potential iron overload at all and there is plenty of followers who will end up with some serious health issues due to crazy high iron.. Btw serum copper and ceruloplasmin test is the only way how you can find out how much free/unbound copper you have in the blood.. Which is the most important info.
(Please note that I had this ancedote backwards. It was about COPPER, as Jiri points out below) I was searching for an anecdote and found the blurb below. I wish I could find the anecdote. It was about a farmer who raised turkeys on an inadvertently low-zinc copper diet. They grew for a while, but then all dropped dead. The curious farmer looked into it and found they all died of ?aneurism?. Well, I think that is very interesting because family members of mine (VA overload suspects) have had that problem. When they added copper to the feed the next year, the problem disappeared.
When you read a list of zinc deficiency symptoms, it corresponds very closely to VA overload. Which comes first? Too much VA, zinc runs down. Too little zinc VA runs up. Perhaps both happen.
The article below says these 3 types of people are often low in zinc (among others):
Alcoholics (they would be perhaps using up their zinc-based enzymes, the same ones that detox VA)
Individuals with chronic renal disease (So, VA overloaded people?)
Older adults (65 years and older) (Grant has posted charts, VA rises with age)
Quote:
"Vitamin A
Zinc and vitamin A interact in several ways. Zinc is a component of retinol-binding protein, a protein necessary for transporting vitamin A in the blood. Zinc is also required for the enzyme that converts retinol (vitamin A) to retinal. This latter form of vitamin A is necessary for the synthesis of rhodopsin, a protein in the eye that absorbs light and thus is involved in dark adaptation. Zinc deficiency has been associated with a decreased release of vitamin A from the liver, which may contribute to symptoms of night blindness that are seen with zinc deficiency (31, 32)."
https://lpi.oregonstate.edu/mic/minerals/zinc
End quote
Interesting paragraph, and I suppose one thing that we might be able to use there is that declining night vision might mean you are running out of zinc in your detox journey.
@lil-chick I think you talk about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkF1fZJLHLE
I used to listen Dr.Wallach a lot. Seems like a good guy. For sure better Dr. than average.. But he doesn't understand copper metabolism at all. He had no idea about transport proteins. He had no idea that you can have all kinds of copper deficiency symptoms. You can even die from aneurysm and have toxic level of copper in the liver, brain... Simply if it is not bound to ceruloplasmin it can not do its job. It is just source of oxidative damage..
OK! thanks Jiri, that was it. SORRY everyone, the turkey story is about NOT ENOUGH COPPER (rather than ZINC).. I remembered it backwards.
My "VA suspects with aneurism" DO have white hair, fitting with Dr. Wallach's theory. As do I.
Interesting, that problems with broken or upset capillaries, hemorrhoids, etc have all been talked about here, on Grant's list.
I suppose that those symptoms might be put down to the copper side of this problem.